Burnie_man Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 This all reminds me of the old saying that the camel was designed by a committee. The Pyramid (despite what Burnie thinks) is here. Unlike the camel the Pyramid's humps & imperfections will be ironed out over time. Grimbo If the Pyramid is here, how do you get promoted into the LL and HFL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simplistic Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Indeed, the pyramid isn't here as you say, but stage 1 of it is now in place. As many say, it isn't utopian, but then not many leagues are. I hope Blackburn apply next season myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Has anyone applied for HL or LL and not got in over the past year or so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Various clubs have applied for the Lowland League and not been taken in yes, last month it was said that 7 applied of which BSC Glasgow and Edinburgh Uni were admitted. It's not possible in the Highland League at the moment since they only take applications when they've got a vacancy or plan expansion. There will be a pyramid system very imminently, as I don't see why there won't be pro/rel between the LL and the EOS and SOS leagues (both of which do have annual applications) even if the Juniors say "no". Someone posted an article from the 'Southern Reporter' about it. Wouldn't be an ideal pyramid, but it would be a pyramid. However, if the Junior leagues participate you've a much better pyramid, and you presumably look to integrate them with EOS + SOS to tidy things up. In either case, the remaining hurdle would be formalising interaction between the Amateurs and whatever stood above. EDIT: And if the Juniors did say "no" I suppose you'd have a extra hurdle in the North about how things coalesced under HL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Indeed, the pyramid isn't here as you say, but stage 1 of it is now in place. As many say, it isn't utopian, but then not many leagues are. I hope Blackburn apply next season myself! I don't think that will be happening, promotion to the East Premier is the aim next season along with further development of the youth sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
left half Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 All this talk of pyramids and camels....remember a camel is a horse designed by a committee . Sound familiar ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim O'Grady Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 All this talk of pyramids and camels....remember a camel is a horse designed by a committee . Sound familiar ? yes it does sound familiar, funnily enough because I posted it yesterday! Grimbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Various clubs have applied for the Lowland League and not been taken in yes, last month it was said that 7 applied of which BSC Glasgow and Edinburgh Uni were admitted. It's not possible in the Highland League at the moment since they only take applications when they've got a vacancy or plan expansion. There will be a pyramid system very imminently, as I don't see why there won't be pro/rel between the LL and the EOS and SOS leagues (both of which do have annual applications) even if the Juniors say "no". Someone posted an article from the 'Southern Reporter' about it. Wouldn't be an ideal pyramid, but it would be a pyramid. However, if the Junior leagues participate you've a much better pyramid, and you presumably look to integrate them with EOS + SOS to tidy things up. In either case, the remaining hurdle would be formalising interaction between the Amateurs and whatever stood above. EDIT: And if the Juniors did say "no" I suppose you'd have a extra hurdle in the North about how things coalesced under HL. If the Juniors suddenly went "all in", how skewed do you think the HFL and LL structures would look HJ? The LL would be fed by the West Juniors, the current EoS and SoS seniors and every East Junior team from south of Dundee. How many subsets might need to be formed were that to happen? By comparison, the HFL would be fed by the existing North Juniors plus the teams from and above Dundee in the current East Junior set up. To me that looks a massive ask for a team from the South who want to work their way up in comparison to a team of similar stature in the North. Take Blackburn and Dundee Downfield for example. Both finished 3rd in their respective East North and East South divisions. For Blackburn to get to the SPFL through the pyramid structure south of the Tay would be considerably tougher than would be the case for Downfield from north of the Tay. Can anyone really suggest that such disparity in the strengths of the leagues which would underpin Tier 5 is acceptable? For me it's self evident why there needs to be 3 feeders with 2 in the South. I'm not bothered if no additional space opens up from the SPFL. But I suggest the outcome of deliberations last year would have been markedly different for tier 5 if all of that had been taken into account instead of jumping to a 2 league structure. The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether it was purposely engineered not to achieve buy in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Ultimately it will be the strongest team that progresses to the play off matches with "club 42". If the Lowland League champions have a tougher route to get to that stage then they should be in a better position to compete against the Highland League champions for the right to play "club 42". It is not ideal but it is one of the concessions that was made to get the SPFL to agree to the whole concept of the pyramid. It's a start which could lead to improvements in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Ultimately it will be the strongest team that progresses to the play off matches with "club 42". If the Lowland League champions have a tougher route to get to that stage then they should be in a better position to compete against the Highland League champions for the right to play "club 42". It is not ideal but it is one of the concessions that was made to get the SPFL to agree to the whole concept of the pyramid. It's a start which could lead to improvements in the future. I see that. But I fail to see the relevance. Why should it be so much easier to be top dog or become top dog in one half of the country than the other? A pyramid is not all about the pinnacle. I know the answer is going to be "we've got what we've got". But is it really acceptable that Blackburn's path to SPFL2 (and all points in between) should be so much more arduous than Dundee Downfield? At the moment, both these clubs face the same journey to the top of their football structure. In the pyramid which currently exists, Downfield would be able to leave behind the strength which exists in the East Premier and East Super leagues. They'd instead need to outstrip the much, much weaker North juniors. Blackburn by contrast, would need to beat most of what is already there plus the whole of the West juniors and the EoS and SoS. How can anyone - anyone - suggest that this is right or reasonable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanley Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 If the Juniors suddenly went "all in", how skewed do you think the HFL and LL structures would look HJ? The LL would be fed by the West Juniors, the current EoS and SoS seniors and every East Junior team from south of Dundee. How many subsets might need to be formed were that to happen? By comparison, the HFL would be fed by the existing North Juniors plus the teams from and above Dundee in the current East Junior set up. To me that looks a massive ask for a team from the South who want to work their way up in comparison to a team of similar stature in the North. Take Blackburn and Dundee Downfield for example. Both finished 3rd in their respective East North and East South divisions. For Blackburn to get to the SPFL through the pyramid structure south of the Tay would be considerably tougher than would be the case for Downfield from north of the Tay. Can anyone really suggest that such disparity in the strengths of the leagues which would underpin Tier 5 is acceptable? For me it's self evident why there needs to be 3 feeders with 2 in the South. I'm not bothered if no additional space opens up from the SPFL. But I suggest the outcome of deliberations last year would have been markedly different for tier 5 if all of that had been taken into account instead of jumping to a 2 league structure. The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether it was purposely engineered not to achieve buy in. I think a lot of people will agree with you about there being a west league at tier 5. In an ideal world, where the junior clubs become part of the pyramid, there would be North/West/East leagues at tier 5. Then you could have playoff semis between the three winners and the bottom-placed club in the third division (I'd rather have automatic relegation but at least this would be a step in the right direction). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 All this talk of pyramids and camels....remember a camel is a horse designed by a committee . Sound familiar ? Reminds me of the Egyptian taxi driver...Tootncumoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
left half Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 You did indeed Grimbo , my apologies . The minutes for the 'design your own horse' arrived late ! Some good posts on this subject , however tends to circulate around 'what if' where the juniors are concerned. My hope is that this is the beginning of a true pyramid system , however there are a number of clubs with their nose in the trough who have contributed little over the years who have the greatest incentive to resist change. However , I remain optimistic , it has only taken 130 years to get to where we are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsPhil Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 The Highland League's 2014/15 fixture list released this morning declares : Saturday 25 April 2015 Pyramid Play-offWinner of Highland League v Winner of Lowland League Saturday 2 May 2015Pyramid Play-offWinner of Lowland League v Winner of Highland League Saturday 9 May 2015Pyramid Play-offWinner of SHFL or SLFL v SPFL Team 42 Saturday 16 May 2015Pyramid Play-offSPFL Team 42 v Winner of SHFL or SLFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 I see that. But I fail to see the relevance. Why should it be so much easier to be top dog or become top dog in one half of the country than the other? A pyramid is not all about the pinnacle. I know the answer is going to be "we've got what we've got". But is it really acceptable that Blackburn's path to SPFL2 (and all points in between) should be so much more arduous than Dundee Downfield? At the moment, both these clubs face the same journey to the top of their football structure. In the pyramid which currently exists, Downfield would be able to leave behind the strength which exists in the East Premier and East Super leagues. They'd instead need to outstrip the much, much weaker North juniors. Blackburn by contrast, would need to beat most of what is already there plus the whole of the West juniors and the EoS and SoS. How can anyone - anyone - suggest that this is right or reasonable? If I get your meaning correct. You are saying that because there are so many more clubs below the Tay boundary line (if that is indeed the boundary) they will have a harder path to progress to be the top dog than a club above that boundary? I cannot see an alternative. This is the state of play at the moment. We have to have have two feeder league to the SPFL (they wanted one but compromise was reached) All these clubs had to be licenced. The Highland League was already in place. We had to form a Lowland League to give us another feeder league. (a bit rushed granted but it is up and running now) Even after a year of formation, the juniors have made it pretty plain that they do not want to be involved (apart from a small minority of fans like yourself). However the juniors still want access to the Senior Scottish Cup while retaining their Junior label. Non-League seniors are still not invited to participate in the Junior Cup (I wonder just how Brora Rangers, Spartans, Lothian Thistle or Wigton would get on?, SJFA running scared that one of them would win it??) With all due respect HTG what do you think can realistically be done? The SFA cannot force the Juniors to participate, there would be uproar on the other forum if that happened and perhaps Ayrshire would declare independence. We do have to make do with what we have got. East Kilbride have shown that taking an amateur team from the West of Scotland and making a decent team can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 If I get your meaning correct. You are saying that because there are so many more clubs below the Tay boundary line (if that is indeed the boundary) the they will have a harder path to progress to be the top dog than a club above that boundary? I cannot see an alternative. This is the state of play at the moment. We have to have have two feeder league to the SPFL (they wanted one but compromise was reached) All these clubs had to be licenced. The Highland League was already in place. We had to form a Lowland League to give us another feeder league. (a bit rushed granted but it is up and running now) Even after a year of formation, the juniors have made it pretty plain that they do not want to be involved (apart from a small minority of fans like yourself). However the juniors still want access to the Senior Scottish Cup while retaining their Junior label. Non-League seniors are still not invited to participate in the Junior Cup (I wonder just how Brora Rangers, Spartans, Lothian Thistle or Wigton would get on?, SJFA running scared that one of them would win it??) With all due respect HTG what do you think can realistically be done? The SFA cannot force the Juniors to participate. We do have to make do with what we have got. East Kilbride have shown that taking an amateur team from the West of Scotland and making a decent team can be done. If nobody can see an alternative then that is at the heart of the problem. My question started with a vital qualifying comment "if the Juniors went all in ...". They haven't. But, if they did, how can anyone suggest that there would be even a hint of balance about Tier 5? I'm not arguing about what is in place just now. The question of Junior Cup entry is a deflection away as it doesn't belong in the scenario or discussion I was trying to develop where all non league clubs feed the pyramid. So is the question of Juniors in the Scottish Cup. I'm not asking you or anyone else to defend what you and your clubs do at the moment. I have no problem with those clubs. My problem is entirely with the structuring and establishment of the model. Like Burniefan, I'm a passionate believer in a pyramid. I'm also in favour of fairness. A proper pyramid would have to look at what fed the top of the regionalised elements. Were that to happen the complete imbalance would be massively exposed. I haven't got time just now but I'd love to see what that sub structure would look like. My guess is that there would be many more layers to the Lowland element than the Highland element. So tier 9 in the south might equate to tier 6 in the north in terms of ability. The south might run to tier 16 whilst the north might run out of clubs at tier 11. The pyramid doesn't start or end with the top flight although I can see why folk might need to consider it that way at the moment. The Egyptians presumably built their pyramids from the bottom up. How would they have looked if the SFA were the designers ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 How would they have looked if the SFA were the designers ... It's an interesting question !! One could postulate whether Tutenjohnstun, Pharaoh of the Egyptian JFA, might have declared that burial mounds had always served us perfectly adequately. And it'd entail much longer funeral processions. And do you realise a burial chamber alone could cost 250,000 piastre. Before proposing to build their own stone pointy-topped monument on the opposite bank of the Nile. It's true to say that without the Juniors it will look less like a pyramid and more like the Pharos of Alexandria. Width at the bottom but proportionally a lot of height of the top. But that won't mean someone can't ascend the structure. The Highland League's 2014/15 fixture list released this morning declares : Saturday 25 April 2015 Pyramid Play-off Winner of Highland League v Winner of Lowland League Saturday 2 May 2015 Pyramid Play-off Winner of Lowland League v Winner of Highland League Saturday 9 May 2015 Pyramid Play-off Winner of SHFL or SLFL v SPFL Team 42 Saturday 16 May 2015 Pyramid Play-off SPFL Team 42 v Winner of SHFL or SLFL Good stuff. What a month that could be for the lucky club, pressure but a lucrative prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GFARAB82 Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 The Highland League's 2014/15 fixture list released this morning declares : Saturday 25 April 2015 Pyramid Play-off Winner of Highland League v Winner of Lowland League Saturday 2 May 2015 Pyramid Play-off Winner of Lowland League v Winner of Highland League Saturday 9 May 2015 Pyramid Play-off Winner of SHFL or SLFL v SPFL Team 42 Saturday 16 May 2015 Pyramid Play-off SPFL Team 42 v Winner of SHFL or SLFL Exactly what the game needs good stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampden Diehard Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I see that. But I fail to see the relevance. Why should it be so much easier to be top dog or become top dog in one half of the country than the other? A pyramid is not all about the pinnacle. I know the answer is going to be "we've got what we've got". But is it really acceptable that Blackburn's path to SPFL2 (and all points in between) should be so much more arduous than Dundee Downfield? At the moment, both these clubs face the same journey to the top of their football structure. In the pyramid which currently exists, Downfield would be able to leave behind the strength which exists in the East Premier and East Super leagues. They'd instead need to outstrip the much, much weaker North juniors. Blackburn by contrast, would need to beat most of what is already there plus the whole of the West juniors and the EoS and SoS. How can anyone - anyone - suggest that this is right or reasonable? If the idea is that the best side in the LL or the HL is the team that tackles the pishest SPFL 2 club, it doesn't really matter what the standard in either the LL or the HL is. If Blackburn (or whoever) sort themselves out and are the best side south of the Tay, they will probably be better than the HL winners as the competition is stiffer. Surely you don't want yet another layer of non-regional football below the SPFL? People are dismissing the madness of midweek treks to Elgin, Berwick, Stranraer etc, but the costs of several trips to the other end of the country (particularly in midweek when guys lose wages) each season on gates of 300/400 are horrendous. On lower gates, it would be utter lunacy. And it's two trips to each away ground, remember. A one-off cup tie into the far distance is a good wee jolly, but 6 or 8 of these trips each year is wearing, believe me. Still, that's all just conjecture; the Juniors are unlikely to participate in the pyramid anytime soon. We have a poor substitute for what the pyramid could be and we all have to live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
left half Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Glad to hear from someone likeminded in terms of regionalisation of lower league clubs. Dismissal of my views on financial sustainability of the current model of football in Scotland have been refuted in an article in Saturday's Herald . Begbies Traynor , a leading insolvency practitioner reveals that three of Scotland's clubs in the top three divisions are under 'critical financial pressure' and 50% of all clubs in the four leagues are experiencing early signs of financial distress . Will things be better in the brave new world ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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