Promotion

[Cornishman]

Tier5 in Scottish footie should ideally be split into four regions, encompassing the LL, the HL and the best of the Juniors.

There should be no arbitrary boundaries drawn between them, allowing these to 'nip and tuck' as required on a seasonal basis.

Each Regional League ought to contain sixteen teams as an ideal, and participation; in the first instance; should not require even the tepid licensing requirements currently set-out for continuing HL/LL participation.

Participation in Tier5 should by itself allow for Scottish Cup (SC) entry in the earliest rounds, while licensing achievement (qualifying the holder to apply for promotion) should also give a two-round advantage in entry point to the SC.

Promotion-prospects:- should allow any team finishing in the top-3 of each Tier5 Regional League the right to apply for promotion, actual elevation being restricted to one per Region, per season ~ higher-finishers taking precedence.

The four Tier5 Regions would roughly correspond with SE, SW, N & Fife/Tay areas, although exact boundaries would be kept flexible.

The remaining Juniors, SoS, EoS & North Caledonian clubs, plus ambitious Amateurs would reform 'feeder' Leagues/Divisions to the four Regional Tier5 Leagues. Those might be 'connected' Divisions Two, or separate feeder competitions and would in all likelihood each be further sub-regionalised.

Suitable promotion/relegation relations would be emplaced between Tier5 & Tier6.

Promotions & relegations into Tier5 would be 'to the most geographically appropriate' Division in every case, allowing for transient boundary movement.

I'd propose an initial moratorium upon relegation from the SPFL, to firstly allow an influx of 'fresh blood', expanding by two teams per season (inter-Region play-offs) for three seasons ~ thus affording regular SPFL clubs a 'cushion' against being relegated into non-nationwide divisions... until the number of SPFL clubs reaches a maximum of 48 teams (allowing a switch to a 12-18-18 breakdown). Once that number has been attained, then I'd like to see a new Tier4 of 2x16 developed from the best of the then-current Tier5 clubs, with promotions to replace cascading downward...

Throughout this several-season process no club would have unwanted promotion forced upon them, or licensing attainment ~ although in the latter case achievement of licensing would have advantages attaching in terms of SC entry level (maybe extended to the Junior Cup too) in the first instance, and later-on in the process would have implications for keeping a place in Tier5... Come the end of this period, no licensed club should be held back from attaining/keeping a Tier5 place, otherwise to be occupied by an unlicensed club. Quite how that'd work is moot, but I could see a case for relegating one (lowest positioned) unlicensed Tier5 club per Region, per season if otherwise that Region would lose say, more than one licensed club under 'normal' relegation rules.

In this way, the licensing requirements could be brought-in over a much lengthier transitional period, with emphasis on 'carrot' rather than 'stick'.

Every club would have the opportunity to play at whichever level they desired, without onus on unwanted promotion, while still ensuring against 'bottlenecking' by allowing promotion opportunities to devolve to at least third-place in the table. Should any Division still suffer from such a problem occaisionally, then perhaps teams finishing in 4th./5th. places could be considered for promotions ~ perhaps stipulating winning a play-off against the highest-placed of the Tier4 to-be-relegated teams?

Well, that's my vision of what ought to happen.

Shoot me down in flames!

[VodkaTap]

Tier5 in Scottish footie should ideally be split into four regions, encompassing the LL, the HL and the best of the Juniors.

There should be no arbitrary boundaries drawn between them, allowing these to 'nip and tuck' as required on a seasonal basis.

Each Regional League ought to contain sixteen teams as an ideal, and participation; in the first instance; should not require even the tepid licensing requirements currently set-out for continuing HL/LL participation.

Participation in Tier5 should by itself allow for Scottish Cup (SC) entry in the earliest rounds, while licensing achievement (qualifying the holder to apply for promotion) should also give a two-round advantage in entry point to the SC.

Promotion-prospects:- should allow any team finishing in the top-3 of each Tier5 Regional League the right to apply for promotion, actual elevation being restricted to one per Region, per season ~ higher-finishers taking precedence.

The four Tier5 Regions would roughly correspond with SE, SW, N & Fife/Tay areas, although exact boundaries would be kept flexible.

The remaining Juniors, SoS, EoS & North Caledonian clubs, plus ambitious Amateurs would reform 'feeder' Leagues/Divisions to the four Regional Tier5 Leagues. Those might be 'connected' Divisions Two, or separate feeder competitions and would in all likelihood each be further sub-regionalised.

Suitable promotion/relegation relations would be emplaced between Tier5 & Tier6.

Promotions & relegations into Tier5 would be 'to the most geographically appropriate' Division in every case, allowing for transient boundary movement.

I'd propose an initial moratorium upon relegation from the SPFL, to firstly allow an influx of 'fresh blood', expanding by two teams per season (inter-Region play-offs) for three seasons ~ thus affording regular SPFL clubs a 'cushion' against being relegated into non-nationwide divisions... until the number of SPFL clubs reaches a maximum of 48 teams (allowing a switch to a 12-18-18 breakdown). Once that number has been attained, then I'd like to see a new Tier4 of 2x16 developed from the best of the then-current Tier5 clubs, with promotions to replace cascading downward...

Throughout this several-season process no club would have unwanted promotion forced upon them, or licensing attainment ~ although in the latter case achievement of licensing would have advantages attaching in terms of SC entry level (maybe extended to the Junior Cup too) in the first instance, and later-on in the process would have implications for keeping a place in Tier5... Come the end of this period, no licensed club should be held back from attaining/keeping a Tier5 place, otherwise to be occupied by an unlicensed club. Quite how that'd work is moot, but I could see a case for relegating one (lowest positioned) unlicensed Tier5 club per Region, per season if otherwise that Region would lose say, more than one licensed club under 'normal' relegation rules.

In this way, the licensing requirements could be brought-in over a much lengthier transitional period, with emphasis on 'carrot' rather than 'stick'.

Every club would have the opportunity to play at whichever level they desired, without onus on unwanted promotion, while still ensuring against 'bottlenecking' by allowing promotion opportunities to devolve to at least third-place in the table. Should any Division still suffer from such a problem occaisionally, then perhaps teams finishing in 4th./5th. places could be considered for promotions ~ perhaps stipulating winning a play-off against the highest-placed of the Tier4 to-be-relegated teams?

Well, that's my vision of what ought to happen.

Shoot me down in flames!

Not gonna shoot you down in flames for your analysis and suggestions.

But your comments are like all the rest who would like to see a change - it does not address how we are gonna get from where we are now to where you would like us to be !

I am afraid its all pretty much pie in the sky and has about as much chance of coming to fruition as any of the rest - nil.

[dburns]

The SFA should just slowly work towards expanding and improving the leagues into a similar/identical set up to the Spanish league system.

Phase 1 or Seasons 1 and 2: The national leagues need merged into three leagues of 14, with each team playing the others 3 times(I know alot of games at 39 per season but bear with me) to form a base of the new set up, remove the bullshit split in the Premier while they are at it. Keep the playoff's and work with a straight 1 up, 1 down, plus possible promotion/relegation from the playoff's too. After the first season, they can put plans in place to work towards making the National Leagues 18, 18, 18. With each team playing only 2 games against each other team in the league. (Highland league stays at 18 teams and Lowland expands to 18 during this time)

Phase 2 or Season 3: Top division expands to 16 playing each other twice + a split and one more game against the teams in their half of the split (37 games - this will be removed when the league expands to 18.) 2nd and 3rd stay at 14 teams,teams will be promoted to keep the leagues in order and no relegations will take place as needed. (Highland and Lowland Leagues admit new members as needed)

Phase 3 or Season 4: 2nd tier expands taking on the same set up as the top tier. 3rd stays at 14 teams, teams will be promoted to keep the leagues in order and no relegations will take place as needed.(Highland and Lowland Leagues admit new members as needed)

Phase 4/Season 5: 3rd Tier expands taking on the same set up as the top two tiers. Highland and Lowland lose a team each (new ones can be admitted as needed.)

Phase 5/Seasons 6+7+8: Phase 2, 3 and 4 happen again this time instead increasing to 18 teams each.


Phase 6/Season 9: Stabilize the Highland and Lowland leagues increase them both to 18 members.
Promotions and relegation's become 2 up, 2 down plus playoffs for a 3rd between national leagues.
Highland and Lowland Leagues promote 1 team each into the 3rd tier plus playoffs for a possible 3rd promotion.

Season 10 or 11: Once the national leagues and Highland and Lowland leagues stabalise a new tier forms of 4 regional feeder divisions for the Highland Lowland leagues (recruitment can go on behind the scenes until enough teams are admitted) each division will admit 12 teams and 1 team from each will be promoted into the Highland and Lowland Leagues, 2 into Lowland and 2 into Highland.

What do you guys think?

[energyzone]

The SFA should just slowly work towards expanding and improving the leagues into a similar/identical set up to the Spanish league system.

Phase 1 or Seasons 1 and 2: The national leagues need merged into three leagues of 14, with each team playing the others 3 times(I know alot of games at 39 per season but bear with me) to form a base of the new set up, remove the bullshit split in the Premier while they are at it. Keep the playoff's and work with a straight 1 up, 1 down, plus possible promotion/relegation from the playoff's too. After the first season, they can put plans in place to work towards making the National Leagues 18, 18, 18. With each team playing only 2 games against each other team in the league. (Highland league stays at 18 teams and Lowland expands to 18 during this time)

Phase 2 or Season 3: Top division expands to 16 playing each other twice + a split and one more game against the teams in their half of the split (37 games - this will be removed when the league expands to 18.) 2nd and 3rd stay at 14 teams,teams will be promoted to keep the leagues in order and no relegations will take place as needed. (Highland and Lowland Leagues admit new members as needed)

Phase 3 or Season 4: 2nd tier expands taking on the same set up as the top tier. 3rd stays at 14 teams, teams will be promoted to keep the leagues in order and no relegations will take place as needed.(Highland and Lowland Leagues admit new members as needed)

Phase 4/Season 5: 3rd Tier expands taking on the same set up as the top two tiers. Highland and Lowland lose a team each (new ones can be admitted as needed.)

Phase 5/Seasons 6+7+8: Phase 2, 3 and 4 happen again this time instead increasing to 18 teams each.

Phase 6/Season 9: Stabilize the Highland and Lowland leagues increase them both to 18 members.

Promotions and relegation's become 2 up, 2 down plus playoffs for a 3rd between national leagues.

Highland and Lowland Leagues promote 1 team each into the 3rd tier plus playoffs for a possible 3rd promotion.

Season 10 or 11: Once the national leagues and Highland and Lowland leagues stabalise a new tier forms of 4 regional feeder divisions for the Highland Lowland leagues (recruitment can go on behind the scenes until enough teams are admitted) each division will admit 12 teams and 1 team from each will be promoted into the Highland and Lowland Leagues, 2 into Lowland and 2 into Highland.

What do you guys think?

Just one problem - you didn't mention the Old Firm colts?

[HibeeJibee]

Things will evolve in time, but I think such evolution is far more likely to take place at SPFL2 level (at best) and below, rather than dburns idea, which is for most purposes a very complex and very long reconstruction of the national leagues into "big leagues", then placing 4 regional leagues below the Highland and Lowland leagues.

Looking at things practically, I don't think clubs in the SPFL want to go back to leagues of 16 or 18 for a variety of reasons. And given the choice I suspect the Highland would rather get along with 16 instead of 18 - afterall, the plans to reconstruct the Highland into 2 divisions of 10 during the winter was driven by a feeling there were "too many games" - and the Lowland wouldn't want to follow them to 18. And there's no reason to have 2 feeders underneath, as it could be hard to populate 2 feeders of any strength under the Highlands, plus it requires the Juniors who afterall may simply not join the pyramid.

I suspect nothing much will change in the short-term, and little in the medium-term, tbh.

[dburns]

Just one problem - you didn't mention the Old Firm colts?

It's possible that Reserve, Colt or B Teams could start in a bottom tier and compete in any league up to the one bellow where their respective First Team is, It would certainly beef out the leagues were there a problem filling them and it would help the development of the younger players as you could place a an age cap on these teams at say 23 or something with a maximum of 2-3 over aged players to aid their development on the pitch.

[dburns]

Things will evolve in time, but I think such evolution is far more likely to take place at SPFL2 level (at best) and below, rather than dburns idea, which is for most purposes a very complex and very long reconstruction of the national leagues into "big leagues", then placing 4 regional leagues below the Highland and Lowland leagues.

Looking at things practically, I don't think clubs in the SPFL want to go back to leagues of 16 or 18 for a variety of reasons. And given the choice I suspect the Highland would rather get along with 16 instead of 18 - afterall, the plans to reconstruct the Highland into 2 divisions of 10 during the winter was driven by a feeling there were "too many games" - and the Lowland wouldn't want to follow them to 18. And there's no reason to have 2 feeders underneath, as it could be hard to populate 2 feeders of any strength under the Highlands, plus it requires the Juniors who afterall may simply not join the pyramid.

I suspect nothing much will change in the short-term, and little in the medium-term, tbh.

I don't see the problem with Scottish Teams problems against bigger leagues. and technically there would be less matches per season with a league of 18. as playing each other team twice per season would lead to only 34 games a season in the league for each team which is less than the SPL's current 38 (40 for the team in 11th due to playoff final being two legs) and championship to league 2's 36 games plus the playoffs.

Edit: If the Juniors don't want to join you could simply add in B and/or C teams to beef out the leagues

Like I said similar/identical to the Spanish league system.

And due to having LESS games per team per season a winter break could be included. When Scottish weather is at its worst.

It also doesn't HAVE to be 4 feeder league for Highland/Lowland it could just be another 1 bellow each.

The cups would also be reformed with this. With the Scottish Cup including all teams. League Cup involving teams in the top 3 divisions staying the way it is a non-league cup could replace individual Highland Lowland league cups involving qualifiers in your own region first and could involve Highland/Lowland and Below. and the Challange Cup involving all teams from 3rd league Highland/Lowland and whatever/if anything below.

Not the best plan it could do with some work but arguably far better than what currently exists.

[VodkaTap]

I don't see the problem with Scottish Teams problems against bigger leagues. and technically there would be less matches per season with a league of 18. as playing each other team twice per season would lead to only 34 games a season in the league for each team which is less than the SPL's current 38 (40 for the team in 11th due to playoff final being two legs) and championship to league 2's 36 games plus the playoffs.

Edit: If the Juniors don't want to join you could simply add in B and/or C teams to beef out the leagues

Like I said similar/identical to the Spanish league system.

And due to having LESS games per team per season a winter break could be included. When Scottish weather is at its worst.

It also doesn't HAVE to be 4 feeder league for Highland/Lowland it could just be another 1 bellow each.

The cups would also be reformed with this. With the Scottish Cup including all teams. League Cup involving teams in the top 3 divisions staying the way it is a non-league cup could replace individual Highland Lowland league cups involving qualifiers in your own region first and could involve Highland/Lowland and Below. and the Challange Cup involving all teams from 3rd league Highland/Lowland and whatever/if anything below.

Not the best plan it could do with some work but arguably far better than what currently exists.

I am of that vintage where this suggestion is all just deja vue.

I don't see any possibility of a return to leagues of 18 or 20.

The arguments that were valid for them to make the change back then remain just as valid today.

The numbers of games has absolutely nothing to do whether a change should be made or not

The major complaint against leagues of that size were that there were way too many meaningless matches.

Outside of the half dozen or so at the top and the few at the bottom, what do the large group of teams in the middle have to play for ?

Attendances dropped for those teams as nobody but the hard core bothered to come and watch.

For this reason alone i think there would be little or no chance of persuading teams to move to leagues of 18 or 20

[dburns]

I am of that vintage where this suggestion is all just deja vue.

I don't see any possibility of a return to leagues of 18 or 20.

The arguments that were valid for them to make the change back then remain just as valid today.

The numbers of games has absolutely nothing to do whether a change should be made or not

The major complaint against leagues of that size were that there were way too many meaningless matches.

Outside of the half dozen or so at the top and the few at the bottom, what do the large group of teams in the middle have to play for ?

Attendances dropped for those teams as nobody but the hard core bothered to come and watch.

For this reason alone i think there would be little or no chance of persuading teams to move to leagues of 18 or 20

So how does it work elsewhere? Nearly every damn country in the world has leagues bigger than ours... and it works for them... perhaps a leaf out of the Brazillian league system then would be better if you are worried about lack of competitiveness and even then there "main" league after all the fannying about with different stages has 16 teams or something.

[HibeeJibee]

You're simply wrong to suggest that "nearly every damn country" has bigger leagues. Looking at Europe... clearly the most relevant continent to consider... the top-tier breakdown is as follows:

8 teams... ### #*

10 teams... ##### ##### #

12 teams... ##### ##### ##### #

14 teams... ###

16 teams... ##### ####

18 teams... ##### #

20 teams... ####

*San Marino have 2 "pools" of 8 clubs each

Comparisons with other continents aren't that valid as they have such variation in practices and tradition e.g. in the Americas they often have "conference"-type leagues, or even state leagues followed by national leagues, and even Apertura-Clausura formats. All of that's unknown in Europe. They have totally different expectations regarding the close-season, and very different continental tournament formats, with different demands on the calendar.

Anyway, all of this is basically talking about the national leagues, which doesn't have much place in a discussion about promotion from LL into SPFL2.

[newcastle broon]

So how does it work elsewhere? Nearly every damn country in the world has leagues bigger than ours... and it works for them... perhaps a leaf out of the Brazillian league system then would be better if you are worried about lack of competitiveness and even then there "main" league after all the fannying about with different stages has 16 teams or something.

Play offs as it is in Scotland gives teams a chance to be competitive till nigh end o season whether in promotion race or facing relegation ?

Leagues with high numbers such as 18/20 maybes means a lot of potentially dead rubber games for teams ?

[HTG]

And given the choice I suspect the Highland would rather get along with 16 instead of 18 - afterall, the plans to reconstruct the Highland into 2 divisions of 10 during the winter was driven by a feeling there were "too many games". And there's no reason to have 2 feeders underneath, as it could be hard to populate 2 feeders of any strength under the Highlands, plus it requires the Juniors who afterall may simply not join the pyramid.

.

Even if the juniors were to join the pyramid the HFL would struggle to have 2 feeders of any strength underneath them. Meanwhile, the feeders below the LL would be absolutely cutthroat and would extend a long way down before you reached the quality of the HFL top level feeder and a whole lot further again before the level of HFL second feeder.

This is why a genuine pyramid cannot exist under the current structure. Folk look at the current quality of the LL and perceive it to be lower than the HFL. But bring the juniors in and the whole of the current concept is fucked. The South of the country really has to be split further to reflect the density of people, players and clubs.

No need of course as long as the sfa just play at having a pyramid. In fact the current structure can only work if the juniors stay out so maybe the sfa are pretty pleased with things the way they are.

[VodkaTap]

Even if the juniors were to join the pyramid the HFL would struggle to have 2 feeders of any strength underneath them. Meanwhile, the feeders below the LL would be absolutely cutthroat and would extend a long way down before you reached the quality of the HFL top level feeder and a whole lot further again before the level of HFL second feeder.

This is why a genuine pyramid cannot exist under the current structure. Folk look at the current quality of the LL and perceive it to be lower than the HFL. But bring the juniors in and the whole of the current concept is fucked. The South of the country really has to be split further to reflect the density of people, players and clubs.

No need of course as long as the sfa just play at having a pyramid. In fact the current structure can only work if the juniors stay out so maybe the sfa are pretty pleased with things the way they are.

I have to agree with you analysis - just not so sure about your solution.

Your claim that the SFA are just playing at a pyramid just flies in the face of the facts.

We can go over old ground if you like but until the juniors want to be part of the pyramid, (and there is no evidence that they do), the SFA have to work with those that do.

Of course the juniors would change the dynamics and makeup of the LL but they have shown no interest so far.

We can talk all you like about what could be, should be & maybe be - but until the juniors want to get involved, then what we have is the best we are likely to get.

[HTG]

I disagree. If the structure had been properly analysed and thought through in the first place I think the juniors may well have embraced the idea. That said, I do think the insistence on achieving club licensing standards is giving a number of "quality" junior teams the fear. Just my opinion but if true then the best of the juniors will eventually go to hell in a handcart and some might say they should be driven there by the SFA.

[VodkaTap]

I disagree. If the structure had been properly analysed and thought through in the first place I think the juniors may well have embraced the idea. That said, I do think the insistence on achieving club licensing standards is giving a number of "quality" junior teams the fear. Just my opinion but if true then the best of the juniors will eventually go to hell in a handcart and some might say they should be driven there by the SFA.

Feel free to disagree !

I don't think there is any point now in looking back and saying 'what if'.

Whether you agree or disagree with their view, they have been pretty consistent from the start.

The SFA were determined that facilities had to improve for those teams that to be part of the pyramid so licencing became essential.

That is why onfield success was not the major critieria in choosing teams.

Once the basic facilities were in place, the onfield standards could then be improved.

Everyone would find their own level.

I am sure the juniors will make their own mind up as to what they hope to achieve, whether that is within or outwith the pyramid.

[The Mantis]

Folk look at the current quality of the LL and perceive it to be lower than the HFL.

I green dotted your post as a whole but I seriously question this bit. Who are these perceptive folk?

It's true that the old EOSL lacked depth compared to the HFL (although even that could be disputed as the EOSL clubs had a good record in any cup ties between them).

(I'm talking only about the past 20 years as the HFL has been weakened since then by losing its top clubs. A pleasant memory is seeing Caley hammer spartans 5-0 in the Scottish but then I don't think many junior sides would have been able to live with them either.)

However the LL has represented a raising of playing standards. Whitehill certainly had to fight for every point last season whereas in the EOSL there were usually a few fixtures where you could happily predict a win by four or five goals.

[HibeeJibee]

Next couple of years should give a good indication of the relative strengths of the Highland and Lowland leagues, courtesy the promotion playoffs and the liklihood of increased meetings in the Scottish Cup.

In the past the Highland League has had many more Scottish Cup entrants - and all their clubs were in it whereas the like of Stirling University and Gretna weren't. Also, the quality clubs now concentrated in the Lowland League and challenging each other on a weekly basis was diluted across 2 Senior leagues (plus Broomhill + EK weren't involved).

My gut feeling is the Highland League still has some more strength in depth but I don't think the top teams have much between them. And the difference is not as much as people think it is, it's a hangover perception from how things were 5, 10, 15yrs ago coupled with off-field perceptions like grounds, marketing and crowds.

It seems that last season's Scottish Cup results certainly rattled people up north. Brora romped the HFL but required a last-minute goal to beat an 8-man (ultimately 7-man) Vale of Leithen at home. Preston won 4-3 at Huntly. Even lowly Threave beat equally lowly Rothes 3-0. Aggregate score of City v Fraserburgh was 4-6 (4-4 at Meadowbank/2-0 away) and this was a decent Fraserburgh team who beat Montrose, and finished 5th in HFL, only 4pts off 2nd. Even floundering, hapless Selkirk only lost 3-1 v mid-table Turriff.

[HTG]

I did say "perceive". I think there is a bit more strength in depth in the hfl just now and I was impressed by both nairn and deveronvale last season - albeit the latter kicked us off the park.

[Burnie_man]

The SFA were determined that facilities had to improve for those teams that to be part of the pyramid so licencing became essential.

That is why onfield success was not the major critieria in choosing teams.

Once the basic facilities were in place, the onfield standards could then be improved.

So how does admitting a sports centre into the LL - who do not have a ground of their own, or an adult team at the point of application, or a fanbase - fit into all this? In effect they admitted a sheet of paper.

[brucelee]

Play offs as it is in Scotland gives teams a chance to be competitive till nigh end o season whether in promotion race or facing relegation ?

Leagues with high numbers such as 18/20 maybes means a lot of potentially dead rubber games for teams ?

We are all a bit overly obsessed with competition right to the end of the season in Scotland. But on the other hand we want clubs to blood youngsters and develop talent, maybe the absence of these "dead rubber" games (the description tells you all you need to know what scottish fans think of them) are the reason we are being left behind. Why does every match have to have a consequence?