LongTimeLurker Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 More bluster ignoring the core issue. In a Highland league context the original plan from the SFA was a new ten club north feeder sitting above both the rump of the HL and the north region juniors. Safe to say that didn't go down well with the HL types and they started championing a "progressive system" rather than the SFA's goal of a "pyramid system". Sandy Stables and co subsequently managed to steer things away from the original plan to the point that the HL was simply bolted-on in full as the northern portion of the fifth tier complete with clubs like Rothes, Fort William and Strathspey Thistle that are nowhere near the standard required to genuinely snap at the heels of the bottom tier of the SPFL in terms of playing standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 I've decided to look up "deflection" on Google. Then I'll get to the truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 In the brave new world of the "pyramid" a youth club with no ground and no history of involvement at the adult level of the game gets in, while Banks o' Dee didn't even get the opportunity to make an application to the north portion of the new fifth tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancinirules Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 There is no Pyramid. Oh yes there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Many more glass ceilings to be removed before there will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim O'Grady Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 I've just read that ol' Lurk's is having a go at HJ & threatening him with the magical Lurk's ignore list, must be massive by now, eh? Anyhoo it just brought this quote to mind. "When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think that sardines will be thrown in to the sea." Can you lot please stop throwing sardines at Lurkey? I for one am looking forward to our away trip to play the Broomers next season, this thread is getting SWEPT under the carpet & needs dusting back down & stop having folk just walking all over it, willy-nilly! A new broom eh. Grimbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloop John B Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Can we get an official validation of all the ongoing conspiracies in Scottish football? Despite thinking in the past that it was actually a cabal of the Old Firm creating the Scottish Football Mafia © Romanov, 2008. it is actually completely different... The SFA is really a huge Machiavellian organisation that it's mains purposes are to get Spartans into the SPFL and to prevent the huddled masses of Auchinleck and Irvine etc from rising to their rightful place by challenging Celtic for the champions league spot with their massive funds as it just wouldn't be fair on the rest of us. So they created an elaborate proxy league with a league full of ringers with teams from glamorous locales such as the Selkirk, Castle Douglas and Prestonpans. Once Spartans go up and a hapless non entity like Rangers go into liquidation they will abandon the fake feeder, laughing maniacally while blackmailing junior teams into using the Devil's Incandescence and destroying an age old tradition of going to the toilet in a hole in ground rather than toilets thus ruining the sense of community you can only get in the Juniors. Evil b*****ds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dillinger Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Think you just about nailed it there Sloop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeto Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Scottish football really needs to have a proper pyramid and not have one with a glass ceiling for junior teams and an open door for seniors, many of whom are poorer clubs in every way to the top junior sides. I know the big junior sides sometimes want to remain big fish in a small pond but some will probably change their mind once the lure of playing league football becomes a clearer target. I'm not keen on this overly biased playoff format for next year where the bottom team plays off against the winner of a playoff between the Highland and Lowland leagues. I thought it was going to be the case that the bottom team in the league went down and it would be a straight promotion playoff. I think it could eventually be the case that the Lowland League will end up covering only the East and South, the Highland League will cover the North and there could be space for a Western League for juniors that jump ship to the senior game. Apart from a handful of teams, there are virtually no non league seniors in the West of Scotland and junior teams and new startup teams are the only option. Tiny community based clubs couldn't be the backbone of a new league and there would need to be junior converts in there as well. I can't see the Lowland League being the long term solution for all non Highland seniors to be honest and I see it as a stopgap until some converts arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeto Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I thought Broomhill were a joke to be honest. I'm surprised they got in. It must have been desperation to get a Glasgow team to avoid the notion of the league being made up of purely of East and South of Scotland League clubs apart from East Kilbride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I thought Broomhill were a joke to be honest. I'm surprised they got in... No conspiracy or anything Machiavellian involved. It's the culmination of what happens when clubs and officials follow their self-interest agenda and no attempt is made to be guided by rationality and the bigger picture. With the SFL-SPL merger Doncaster and co originally wanted to regionalise the bottom two tiers and add colt teams to have a more continental sort of format. That got nowhere because it didn't fit the self-interest agendas of the clubs in the bottom two tiers and they had the voting clout to block it. With the "pyramid" Taylor and Smith originally pushed two ten club feeders sitting above both the HL, EoS and SoS and the three junior superleagues with only clubs with facilities close to bronze level able to get in. That got nowhere because it didn't fit the self-interest agendas of the nonleague senior full members and they had the voting clout and influence in high places needed to first block it and then steer things in the direction that ultimately led to Broomhill's entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 It's been outlined more than once why the bigger Junior clubs are not attracted to the Lowland League but it may change over time as its prestige grows. An inconvenient truth for a number of Junior fans (in the west this applies for sure) is that they don't support their Junior team as No 1. A lot will have a 'big' team. The most common argument I'd hear against the pyramid was 'if I wanted senior football I'd go to (insert ground here)'. There is a view that Junior is Junior and Senior is Senior and the two should not mix. It's like the over-protective parent who never wants their child to grow up and leave home. From the club's perspective, it's easier to attract players from the 3rd Division with the lure of far less travelling. To get from Pollok to Auchinleck takes about 45 minutes, so to get there for a 2pm kick off would mean the club coach departing at midday to arrive the desired 75 mins before kick off. Everyone would be back at Newlandsfield by 6pm after the hospitality. That'd be standard for a league game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I appreciate the local aspect of junior football and it does make a lot of sense from a time and financial point of view. However football is a sport and like any sport you want to be the best that go can possibly be. Otherwise you could play with your mates on a Sunday morning in the local park. I see the promotion is giving the team (both on and off the park) the chance to improve. The rewards are there for the players playing against a better quality of player. However I can still see a place for those who who want to be home by six o'clock on a Saturday, just not in the national football structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 From the club's perspective, it's easier to attract players from the 3rd Division with the lure of far less travelling. To get from Pollok to Auchinleck takes about 45 minutes, so to get there for a 2pm kick off would mean the club coach departing at midday to arrive the desired 75 mins before kick off. Everyone would be back at Newlandsfield by 6pm after the hospitality. That'd be standard for a league game. That isn't just a junior issue. Check out what Brora think about promotion to the SPFL. Regionalisation of SPFL3 and SPFL4 would transform attitudes towards the pyramid and until/unless it happens the benefits of SPFL entry will be a tough sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 The benefits of entry to the SPFL may be a tough sell but why is it none of those in it want regionalisation? I agree it makes sense to have regional leagues below the championship but those already there don't want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 The benefits of entry to the SPFL may be a tough sell but why is it none of those in it want regionalisation? I agree it makes sense to have regional leagues below the championship but those already there don't want it. Loss of subsidy from the authorities and perceived standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 That isn't just a junior issue. Check out what Brora think about promotion to the SPFL. Regionalisation of SPFL3 and SPFL4 would transform attitudes towards the pyramid and until/unless it happens the benefits of SPFL entry will be a tough sell. Regionalisation of SPLf3? Good luck with that one. S you think clubs like Dunfermline should be playing Thornton Hibs and Morton should be playing Port Glasgow? It would be a financial catastrophic for clubs like them to drop down into regional leagues, SPFL4 you might have an argument but can you imagine the gap between the Championship and the regional leagues? It would be a nightmare for those sorts of clubs to be forced to go regional. Maybe you should make relegation optional too. You would probably be the first to admit the gap between to top juniors and SPL3 isn't huge, clubs could probably go up and compete or come down without seeing a dramatic fall in turnover so why create a situation where clubs coming down would have to slash costs to avoid making huge losses or spend a fortune in a vain attempt to stay in the league. No, I think the national/regional boundary is more-or-less in the right place, perhaps some in SPL4 would be fine, and perhaps benefit from regionalisation (thinking Elgin in particular) but certainly not SPFL3, that's a step too far.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Regionalisation of SPLf3? Good luck with that one. S you think clubs like Dunfermline should be playing Thornton Hibs and Morton should be playing Port Glasgow? It would be a financial catastrophic for clubs like them to drop down into regional leagues, SPFL4 you might have an argument but can you imagine the gap between the Championship and the regional leagues? It would be a nightmare for those sorts of clubs to be forced to go regional. Maybe you should make relegation optional too. You would probably be the first to admit the gap between to top juniors and SPL3 isn't huge, clubs could probably go up and compete or come down without seeing a dramatic fall in turnover so why create a situation where clubs coming down would have to slash costs to avoid making huge losses or spend a fortune in a vain attempt to stay in the league. No, I think the national/regional boundary is more-or-less in the right place, perhaps some in SPL4 would be fine, and perhaps benefit from regionalisation (thinking Elgin in particular) but certainly not SPFL3, that's a step too far.. Utterly irrelevant examples seeing as neither of the Junior sides you quoted are top Junior division material and are unlikely to ever be any time soon. Morton vs. Talbot and Dunfermline vs. Linlithgow not quite so ridiculous as it reflects what can happen in L1 already. *If* there was regionalisation below the Championship, it would largely involve the 20 clubs that make up L1 and L2. For clubs like Morton and Dunfermline it would make little difference bar losing a trip or two to say Forfar and Montrose and gaining ones to perhaps Spartans or, if involved, Meadow / Auchinleck / Linlithgow. Crowds would perhaps be bigger as away supports would potentially go up. I dunno, I don't know if it would make much of a difference anyway, but the local nature of football in the leagues outwith SPFL attracts supporters for the convenience. I'd like to know who the best supported Junior side are just now in Fife and how that compares to Cowden. One thing rarely mentioned when discussing such things is the size of away supports in the Juniors. A lot of fans go every week (I'd say at Pollok it is not far off 50% of the support, especially for games close to hand) and that is just not the case in the higher divisions. The cost of travel and admission puts off a lot of people. The ability to not be able to go every week would be a hindrance when selling a step up a level. I lived down in England for a bit as a teenager and adopted the local team (whose most famous player of that time is my avatar). I'd go to away games when I could, most of which were 1/2 hours away on the supporters bus, and one a 30 minute train journey away. As soon as they got into the Conference, the games I could realistically go to reduced to maybe 2 or 3 a season. Within a year, out the habit, I'd stopped going as often to home games as well. Habit is a fine thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I was at Albion Rovers v Elgin City earlier in the season, crowd was around the 350 mark, with maybe 10 from Elgin. If Rovers were instead facing Talbot, Rose, Pollok or Bo'ness in a regionalised set-up, would it not be more beneficial financially as well as more convernient? I'm sure these clubs would bring more than 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mantis Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Scottish football really needs to have a proper pyramid and not have one with a glass ceiling for junior teams and an open door for seniors, many of whom are poorer clubs in every way to the top junior sides. I know the big junior sides sometimes want to remain big fish in a small pond but some will probably change their mind once the lure of playing league football becomes a clearer target. I'm not keen on this overly biased playoff format for next year where the bottom team plays off against the winner of a playoff between the Highland and Lowland leagues. I thought it was going to be the case that the bottom team in the league went down and it would be a straight promotion playoff. I think it could eventually be the case that the Lowland League will end up covering only the East and South, the Highland League will cover the North and there could be space for a Western League for juniors that jump ship to the senior game. Apart from a handful of teams, there are virtually no non league seniors in the West of Scotland and junior teams and new startup teams are the only option. Tiny community based clubs couldn't be the backbone of a new league and there would need to be junior converts in there as well. I can't see the Lowland League being the long term solution for all non Highland seniors to be honest and I see it as a stopgap until some converts arrive. 25 pages of this already on 'who are the 4 clubs' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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