RabidAl Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 It's daft that next season we could have part-time Brora (or Wick) playing 4 times against each of part-time Annan and Berwick, in terms of the distances to be travelled repeatedly and the costs for the teams to travel. It'd be more rational to have: Full-timers in national leagues (and League Cup); part-timers in regional leagues (and Challenge Cup); everyone in the Scottish Cup. I reckon the two tiers of part-timers playing nationally that we currently have is two too many, although you could make an argument for a subsidised national league of part-timers, as a sort of development/go-between league - between the full-time, national game and the part-time, regional game. It'd be better to have the top two tiers of 12 full-time teams with possibly a third, subsidised tier of part-timers also competing nationally (and in League Cup) (with these part-timers also competing for the Challenge Cup with all other part-timers), and all other clubs in North, East and West regions. Ideally, you'd have lots of promotion and relegation from this development tier to/from the regions (e.g. 3 down, and 1 coming up from each region), with only one or two promoted to the full-time game each season, and plenty of promotion and relegation between the two national, full-time tiers to spread the money(!) and fixtures about. E.g. (f-t, national) (f-t,national) (p-t, national) (p-t, regional) Premiership Championship League One North, East, West Premiers 1 1 Promoted 1 Promoted 1 Promoted (from each) 2 2 Promoted 2 Play-Off 2 Play-Off (2nd from each of the 3 regions and 9th from League One) 3 3 Play-Off 3 Play-Off 3 4 4 Play-Off 4 Play-Off 4 5 5 Play-Off 5 etc 6 6 6 7 7 7 8 8 8 9 9 9 Play-Off 10 Play-Off 10 10 Relegated 11 Relegated 11 Play-Off 11 Relegated 12 Relegated 12 Relegated 12 Relegated <------------Challenge Cup (all part-time clubs)----------------------> <----League Cup (all national league clubs)----> <--------------------------------------Scottish Cup (all senior clubs)------------------------------------------------> Would this be a bit fairer to the part-time clubs that our current league structure, both in terms of finances (subsidising those competing nationally, the rest playing in more local matches) and competitively (part-timers have their own national trophy they can win and lots of promotion/relegation between regions and the national game)? Would it be more interesting for the two tiers of full-time clubs, with more variety of fixtures through increased promotion and relegation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 If the part-time clubs wanted to play in regionalised leagues, then they would have suggested and voted for it by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAl Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Aye, well, I reckon we've missed an opportunity to rationalise our part-time national leagues into the traditional regions, adding a depth of quality and experience to these regions from our national part-timers, which would also bring the top regional leagues to tier 3 or 4 of the overall national game, giving them much more national attention. The problem seems to be that, when thrashing out the direction of the game 18 or so months ago, the Powers That Be created a 'non-Highland' league and called it the Lowland League. So we now have two-thirds of regional clubs aiming for a single non-Highland promotion play-off place. Creating the Lowland League was an expedient for them whilst they paid closer attention to the other issues: one league body, 'all-through' model, voting rights, and play-offs. They should have looked to create depth in quality in the 3 traditional senior regions by breaking up the 4th (and possibly 3rd) tier of the national leagues, rather than look to merge the best non-Highland teams/clubs. Certainly, with no promotion from below on merit, the Highland and Lowland Leagues fall into the 'closed-shop' trap that made the SPL and SFL so stale: the game needs to be opened up right through from amateur level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawfieldAggro Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Traditional regions...for who??? I think you're arse over tit on this one....the propsed changes would absolutely be the nail in the coffin of lower league in Scotland. You'd obviously never understand unless you followed one, i know a Clydebank fan who would literally give his right arm to retutn to the seniors on a national level. Next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAl Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 ...I also reckon it would be a boon to the likes of Berwick and Clyde, who would be bigger fish in their regional leagues: they'd benefit from bigger support as they'd win more matches and be pushing for promotion most years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 ...I also reckon it would be a boon to the likes of Berwick and Clyde, who would be bigger fish in their regional leagues: they'd benefit from bigger support as they'd win more matches and be pushing for promotion most years... You can't be pushing for promotion most years unless 1. You never get promotion or 2. Pushing for relegation most years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Aye, well, I reckon we've missed an opportunity to rationalise our part-time national leagues into the traditional regions, adding a depth of quality and experience to these regions from our national part-timers, which would also bring the top regional leagues to tier 3 or 4 of the overall national game, giving them much more national attention. The problem seems to be that, when thrashing out the direction of the game 18 or so months ago, the Powers That Be created a 'non-Highland' league and called it the Lowland League. So we now have two-thirds of regional clubs aiming for a single non-Highland promotion play-off place. Creating the Lowland League was an expedient for them whilst they paid closer attention to the other issues: one league body, 'all-through' model, voting rights, and play-offs. They should have looked to create depth in quality in the 3 traditional senior regions by breaking up the 4th (and possibly 3rd) tier of the national leagues, rather than look to merge the best non-Highland teams/clubs. Certainly, with no promotion from below on merit, the Highland and Lowland Leagues fall into the 'closed-shop' trap that made the SPL and SFL so stale: the game needs to be opened up right through from amateur level... Idiot found Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAl Posted November 14, 2014 Author Share Posted November 14, 2014 The pyramid won't work properly whilst League One and League Two remain a barren financial wasteland for the clubs involved. Who can blame regional seniors for not wanting promotion, or juniors for not wanting to join the pyramid, when being promoted to playing part-time football in national leagues will mean their away costs increasing (through travel) and their home costs decreasing (less local matches)? Underfunded leagues of part-timers playing nationally are financial masochism for the clubs involved. I'm surprised it's not the clubs already in League One and League Two who are driving re-structuring into West, North and East regions that would sit at the third tier of the game. Think how vibrant those leagues would be for fans and players to be involved in, and how much more secure clubs' finances would be. Scottish football could be unified pretty quickly if you offered the juniors and regional seniors the security of regional football right up to the point of being promoted to a pre-dominantly full-time league. It would be better than the current meagre existence of our part-timers in national leagues, hanging in there just for the scrap of prestige it offers. Even if you could disband League Two and add that prize money to the League One pot, for example, you would have a first step towards a national league that juniors and regional seniors could aspire to be involved in without risking their financial existence. Until we address the issue of under-funded national leagues full of part-timers, there will be no incentive for clubs to be involved in the pyramid. Until then, we won't really have a pyramid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 RabidAl, you are Neil Doncaster and I collect my £5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAl Posted November 15, 2014 Author Share Posted November 15, 2014 If the SPFL continue to underfund League One and League Two, I can't see 'non-league' clubs being too interested in signing up because promotion to the national leagues will resut in a loss of revenue. The only other way to make the pyramid attractive to them is to offer them regional football to a higher level, as it risks less financially. Do that and you may be able to unify the juniors and seniors, with some intriguing new fixtures, better attendences, and financial security. Here's how it might look initially, using (mostly) current league positions, but it would obviously change around pretty quickly: Premiership Championship Celtic St.Mirren PR Inverness Ross County PO Dundee Utd Hearts PO Hamilton Rangers PO Aberdeen Queen South Dundee Hibernian Kilmarnock Raith Rvs Partick Th Falkirk St. Johnstone PO Alloa PO Motherwell RL Dumbarton RL West One North One East One Morton PO Forfar PO Livingston PO Stranraer Brechin Cowdenbeath Ayr Utd Peterhead Dunfermline Airdrie Arbroath Stennie Queen's Park Montrose Stirling A Albion R Elgin Berwick Clyde Brora East Fife Annan Maud East Stir. Gretna RL Turriff RL Edinburgh City RL Irvine Meadow RL Banks O'Dee RL Kelty Hearts RL West Two North Two East Two Dalbeattie PR Wick PR Spartans PR Beith PR Stonehaven PR Newtongrange PR East Kilbride Inverurie Whitehill Welf Auchinleck Hermes Linlithgow Rose BSC Glasgow Formartine Stirling Uni Petershill Culter Bonnyrigg Threave Fraserburgh Selkirk Kilbirnie Banchory Boness Utd Shotts B A RL Cove R PO Vale of Leithen PO Hurlford RL Inverness City RL Musselburgh RL (W) (W) (W) (W) (N) (N) (N) (E) (E) (E) Galloway Ayrshire Clyde South Clyde North Aberdeenshire Moray Angus Fife Lothians Borders 1 PO 1 PO 1 PO 1 PO 1 PO 1 PO 1 PO 1 PO 1 PO 1 PO 2 etc See attachment for cups, fiancial, etc... 2015-16.Pyramid.Etc.xls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 You keep referring to a loss of revenue for clubs joining the national league, back up your figures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binos123sam Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 While bored at work on nights I decided to come up with my prefered league system now it won't please everyone of course as some like smaller leagues and some larger but this is my idea (All teams are placed on current league positions) the league would involve all clubs in Scotland with no Jnr v Snr difference sorry it is a little long Premier Division (SPFL) 3-4 New teams each season Celtichorrible idea Aberdeen Motherwell Dundee United Inverness CT St Johnstone Hibernian Kilmarnock Ross County St Mirren Partick Thistle Hearts Dundee Hamilton ------------------------------------------------------ 15. Falkirk PL/Div 1 Play off ------------------------------------------------------ 16. Queen of the South Relegation 17. Dumbarton Relegation 18. Livingston Relegation Div 1 (SPFL) 6-8 New teams each season Alloa Promotion Raith Rovers Promotion Cowdenbeath Promotion ------------------------------------------------------ 4. Greenock Morton PL/Div 1 Play off ------------------------------------------------------ 5. Rangers 6. Dunfermline 7. Stranraer 8. Ayr United 9. Stenhousemuir 10. Forfar 11. Brechin 12. Airdrieonians 13.East Fife 14. Arbroath ------------------------------------------------------ 15. Peterhead Div 1 / Non League Play off ------------------------------------------------------ 16.Annan Athletic Relegation 17. Stirling Relegation 18. Clyde Relegation Under new Non League FA (merger of HL,LL and SJFA) 3 region split every region has 1 Promotion and 1 play off spot Highland League East League West League 1. Montrose 1. Berwick 1. Albion rovers All Promotion ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2. Elgin 2. East Stirlingshire 2. Queens Park All Play offs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The remainder of the Highland League to be made up by current Highland league and Northern Juniors size of leagues and divisions to be decided by competing teams and new Non League FA. The remainder of the East League to be made up of Lowland League, East of Scotland League, South of Scotland League and East Juniors size of leagues and divisions to be decided by competing teams and new Non League FA. The remainder of the West League to be made up of Lowland League, South of Scotland League and West Juniors size of leagues and divisions to be decided by competing teams and new Non League FA. Play Offs All either neutral venue or two legs Premier Division 15th plays off against 4th from Division 1 winner goes to Premier Division (Could be opened up to 5th and 6th if required) Division 1 15th plays off against Highland league, East League and West League 2nd place teams all 4 go into the draw 4 team knockout winner goes to Division 1. Cups Scottish Cup Any Club in Scotland with a ground meeting the SFA requirements is entered into the Scottish cup regardless of level League Cup Premier Division and Division 1Non League Cup Includes all Non League teams could be regional until the later rounds that would be for the clubs and Non League FA to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrman2011 Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Love that idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 It won’t be popular, but here’s the structure that I think best suits the number of potential full-time and part-time senior clubs in Scotland, and best reflects their regional distribution. 2 national leagues. 24 full-time clubs, with good resources, playing nationwide. 3 regions with 6 leagues. 75 part-time clubs, with limited resources, playing regionally. Premiership Championship North Pr East Pr West Pr Celtic St.Mirren Brechin Alloa Dumbarton Rangers Dundee Forfar Cowden. Annan Ath. Aberdeen Hamilton Arbroath Stenny Clyde Hearts Falkirk Peterhead East Fife Albion Rvs Hibs Dunfermline Montrose Stirling Queen’s Park Dundee Utd Raith Rvs Elgin East Stirl. Dalbeattie Motherwell Livingston Brora Berwick East Kilbride Killie Morton Nairn Spartans Gretna Inverness Ayr Utd Inverurie Stirling Uni. Threave St.Johnstone Queen of South Formartine V. of Leithen Newton-St. Partick Th. Airdrie Fraserburgh Whitehill W. Ross County Stranraer Deveronvale Edin. City Preston Gala North Ch East Ch West Ch Buckie Selkirk Wigtown Wick Craigroyst. St.Cuthbert Forres Lothian Th. Nithsdale Cove Tynecastle Crichton Clach. Edin. Uni. Mid-Annan. Turriff Coldstream Lochar Huntly Leith Ath. Heston Keith Heriot-Watt Abbey Vale Lossiemouth Civil Service Fleet Star Rothes Easthouses Creetown Strathspey Kelso Fort William Ormiston Eyemouth Peebles Duns Burntisland Hawick Promotion & Relegation 2 up/2 down automatically between Premiership and Championship. 3rd bottom of Premiership plays off against 3rd top of Championship – see ‘Re-think the play-offs’ thread. Bottom of Championship is automatically relegated. 2nd bottom of Championship and the winners of each region play off, with 2 of the 4 clubs being ‘promoted’ to the Championship. As normal between the regional leagues, accommodating changes due to promotion to/relegation from the Championship where required. Cup O’ Regions A new knock-out competition allowing the part-time clubs of all regions to play each-other at the national level. That’s about it! Whats wrong with the way it is? Also whats 'regional' about Arbroath playing Peterhead, Elgin, Brora, Nairn, Wick etc etc. Arbroaths 40 minutes away from Perth which is probably the most central place in Scotland! Elgins nearly 3 hours away FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Whats wrong with the way it is? Also whats 'regional' about Arbroath playing Peterhead, Elgin, Brora, Nairn, Wick etc etc. Arbroaths 40 minutes away from Perth which is probably the most central place in Scotland! Elgins nearly 3 hours away FFS. Now he hates Elgin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Now he hates Elgin. Surely even your bored of this pish now? I don't hate Chinese people, fat people or Elgin but I hate you!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Surely even your bored of this pish now? I don't hate Chinese people, fat people or Elgin but I hate you!!!!!! At least I'm not on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grazza Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Premiership - 12 teams (2 Automatic relegated) Summary - 2 automatic relegation spots should make bottom end post split more exciting. Just don't see much gained by making number of teams bigger without making full time football harder to maintain outside top flight Championship - 12 teams ( Champion Promoted, play offs - quarter - 4th v 5th (1 off game higher seed home adv), Semi 3rd v quarter winner (1 off game higher seed home adv), Final 2nd v semi winner (neutral venue) 2 automatically relegated and 10th team in play offs Summary - 2 championship teams go up, you win the league your champions and go up, play offs designed so seeding gives a proper advantage I think you either do one off or best of 3 else there ain't much difference being 4th or 5th. The final in a neutral venue would create more of a spectacle, probably Easter Road/ Tynecastle/ Fir Park for venues but see who the 4 teams in play offs are then decide. There is option there to play more games if that helps revenue and teams to be full time. National League - 12 teams (Split into 2 conferences of 6 - play other conference clubs once home & One away, play own conference twice home & away) (Conference winners each promoted and 2nd, 3rd, 4th teams from overall national league table, and 10th Championship club in play offs. Bottom club in each conference gets relegated. Summary: This would act as a hybrid league where there is more travel than lower levels but cuts down on long trips e.g. Stranraer v Elgin to once for each team and they can be scheduled to be less likely to be called off. Keep 4 matches for local games e.g. Arbroath v Forfar. so can mean better average crowds. 32 game schedule would allow a bit more flexibility with fixtures for part time teams and a winter break or a free weekend or two later on to catchup with postponed games. The overall winners are guaranteed to also be a conference winner anyway the same with the team that is bottom but for other promotion or relegated slots it puts a bit more importance in intra conference matches. Highland / Lowland (12 to 14 in each) - winner of each gets promoted to national league. Perhaps consider potentially extra promotion slot via play offs after 3 years. Summary: 6 current league 2 teams go into this and this would boost the depth at this level and probably make it easier to convince that they are worth at least automatic promotion slots and maybe play offs in addition to this. More depth at this level and automatic promotion slots could be the carrot some junior sides need to make the switch longer term. The likes of Montrose, Elgin,East Stirling can still be in 4th tier but maybe find that they are not always struggling each year build themselves up better and would have a arguably a better chance to make 3rd tier. Longer term if a lot of or most of Juniors somehow were to merge into this then change from highland / lowland to north/west/east at this level. North would feed in below highland league and north caledonian league could have option to be part of this if they could regionalise it maybe west and east in the north below higlands. Top west and Top East teams would take in lowland league teams. South of Scotland league could be parallel to Ayrshire and central league. East of Scotland league premier could merge into 2nd tier east with juniors. That would only be in perfect pyramid scenario but unless juniors fully buy into it can only maybe get teams individually applying to make the move which should be supported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawfieldAggro Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Why is there this unrelenting, systematic campaign to impose regional classification upon teams in the current league2?? Speaking purely selfishly, clubs at our level are not the cause of the stale, garbage forms of 'entertainment' on offer higher above, despite what everyones favourite blazers Doncaster and Regan might tell you. Whoever falls out the league, knowing that its a possibility this year, will have deserved to, but taking the spectre of national.competition away from six clubs to fill some nonsense agenda sounds ludicrous in the extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 42 isn't a round or easily divisible number, so people wanting 3 sets of 12 (i.e. 36) or 2 sets of 16 (i.e. 32) or whatever inevitably fall back on casting some or all of the current SPFL2 clubs into regional football. I must say that in principle, I actually agree with them, as 42 clubs playing nationwide is too many and would not come to pass if you created things from scratch today - plus it supposedly discourages certain non-leaguers (e.g. Juniors). But history has given us 42 so any realistic adjustments must involve 42 or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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