@ yes supporters: How will you react if the result is no

[H_B]

If it's impossible to answer then you are not in a position to make sweeping statements about what constitutes real poverty are you?

Let me help you out here.

I'm not talking about benefits - that's irrelevant. I'm just trying to put a figure on costs. Benefits is an income so not relevant.

It also doesn't really matter what age the children are either once they get beyond about 5 they cost virtually the same to feed and clothe (and I'm talking from personal experience here of bringing 3 of them).

To help you on rent, let's say a 3 bed house or flat which will set you on average about £600 per month whether you are renting or owning the house (unless you are extremely fortunate and have one of the few remaining council flats).

I don't think you are in a position to ask any questions until you answer :-

1) Who the 4 parties are who can be the major pparty in the Scottish Parliament?

2) Your evidence for the claim that "70% of the electorate wanted this referendum"?

[Confidemus]

I don't think you are in a position to ask any questions until you answer :-

1) Who the 4 parties are who can be the major pparty in the Scottish Parliament?

2) Your evidence for the claim that "70% of the electorate wanted this referendum"?

Good grief. Absolute and total clusterfuck for HB here today.

I'm almost embarrassed for him.

[H_B]

OK you've made your decision. I've got better things to do than waste my time on you.

Like I said, it's a free country.

Did you actually think you d get away with such utter nonsense and not get called on it? Really?

Still... at least we can move on now. In the knowledge that nothing you say is of any value.

[Davi3j]

THE European parliament is to set out its legal advice on whether an independent Scotland could be fast-tracked into EU membership.

A formal legal opinion from the parliament’s lawyers will be published within the next few weeks in what will be a major test of the SNP government’s claim that it could be swiftly admitted to the EU through a treaty amendment.

Soooooo H_B, what has happened to this legal advice the EU were supposed to be outlining, that you were crowing about a month ago. Still waiting :lol:

[H_B]

Soooooo H_B, what has happened to this legal advice the EU were supposed to be outlining, that you were crowing about a month ago. Still waiting :lol:

I didnt commission it. I reported the story as it appeared.

Ask the E U.

[Davi3j]

I didnt commission it. I reported the story as it appeared.

Ask the E U.

:lol:

you didn't just report the story as it appeared, you referred to it several times fully expecting it to go against the SNPs plans.

Gutted for you.

[Baxter Parp]

Good grief. Absolute and total clusterfuck for HB here today.

I'm almost embarrassed for him.

I'm not, I got used to it ages ago.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

There are almost a million Scots in poverty. 870,000 is almost a million in anyone but a fool's language.

So what caused them to be in poverty then? Did they fall over and all their money fell out?

Come on, HB, don't be stupid.

Depends what you define as poverty.

[H_B]

:lol:

you didn't just report the story as it appeared, you referred to it several times fully expecting it to go against the SNPs plans.

Gutted for you.

Sorry are you saying a Euro MP hasnt made this request?

[H_B]

I'm not, I got used to it ages ago.

Parpy Parpy.

How s the Darien research going?

Can you ask someone at the IFC to help you?

[Davi3j]

Sorry are you saying a Euro MP hasnt made this request?

No, I'm saying this legal advice was never going to be forthcoming. The request has to come from the UK government.

[Fotbawmad]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to question or criticise (within reason) someone for making a decision based on selfish reasons rather than for the betterment of millions of their countrymen.

As I said on another thread, Thatcher was correct - there IS no such thing as society. Part of the reason we hate her so much up here is that she has been progressively proven to be right. In Scotland we thought all this grubby money obsession was reserved just to South East England and America and that we were above that as a society. We aren't. We're just as morally lost as everyone else out there.

Depressingly, we appear to have an attitude of screw everyone else as long as we personally get what we want.

Few are prepared to sacrifice anything for anyone anymore. That's a lot of "any"'s.

I find this sad but if that's the reason why you're voting that way, then it's a free country.

Shame though.

The way I see it, if you create a certain system and laws. It's going to create certain attitudes and cultures towards it. Talking about "bankers greed" and "scroungers" is laughable when you understand the systems and the laws in place. For example if you give a plumber a percentage cut on every job he does, then he'll be incentivized to charge customers as much as he can so he can get paid more. On the contrary if you pay someone the minimum you can get away with, without any additional rewards, then they're going to do the minimum amount of work they can get away with in return.

While we aren't quite as selfish when it comes to voting compared to the people down south, We still largely vote on selfish grounds, and politicians exploit this. I remember my mum saying she didn't care what the policies are. She was more concerned with how much money was in her account at the end of the month. Socialism isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure, you get lots of freebies from the government, but it traps you and creates a dependency culture. It ultimately disincentives most working people, and doesn't encourage them to build a better country. However, governments like this system because of the control and influence they can exert over you. Your pretty much going to do as they say if they threaten to cut, withhold or offer an additional freebie.

[ICTChris]

What will be interesting politically is how the SNP react if the vote is No. The SNP strategy has been to emphasise the continuity of independence (the social union, keeping the monarchy, the currency union, retaining NATO) as opposed to the more radical campaigns of previous generations (It's Scotland's Oil, Scotland Free by '93 etc). The SNP MSPs have been remarkably well disciplined and on message through all of this, aside from two MSPs resigning the whip over NATO. This echoes the way that Tony Blair reformed the Labour party and what David Cameron did when winning the Tory leadership. Blair was basically tolerated by his party members because he won elections, although that changed following the Iraq invasion. Cameron hasn't managed to secure a majority, which has caused him problems with the right on his party.

If the vote is decisively No, say less than 40% Yes, how will the SNP react? Will it take a 'one-more-push' approach and continue on their current course or will a more radical agenda be sought? Activists often react to defeat by wanting to emphasise with core issues, the core vote. but if the relatively moderate proposals in the White Paper are defeated can anyone really believe that a majority will say yes to a more radical approach? If the vote is No but is close, with 45%+ voting Yes, then I'd say that the SNP will be justified in continuation of their current tactics and strategy.

[ayrmad]

The way I see it, if you create a certain system and laws. It's going to create certain attitudes and cultures towards it. Talking about "bankers greed" and "scroungers" is laughable when you understand the systems and the laws in place. For example if you give a plumber a percentage cut on every job he does, then he'll be incentivized to charge customers as much as he can so he can get paid more. On the contrary if you pay someone the minimum you can get away with, without any additional rewards, then they're going to do the minimum amount of work they can get away with in return.

While we aren't quite as selfish when it comes to voting compared to the people down south, We still largely vote on selfish grounds, and politicians exploit this. I remember my mum saying she didn't care what the policies are. She was more concerned with how much money was in her account at the end of the month. Socialism isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure, you get lots of freebies from the government, but it traps you and creates a dependency culture. It ultimately disincentives most working people, and doesn't encourage them to build a better country. However, governments like this system because of the control and influence they can exert over you. Your pretty much going to do as they say if they threaten to cut, withhold or offer an additional freebie.

Correct, it's a new radically progressive system I'm looking for.

[H_B]

No, I'm saying this legal advice was never going to be forthcoming. The request has to come from the UK government.

Uh... what?

Do you understand what this story is about you utter fool?

Its not a request about Scotland.

[H_B]

What will be interesting politically is how the SNP react if the vote is No. The SNP strategy has been to emphasise the continuity of independence (the social union, keeping the monarchy, the currency union, retaining NATO) as opposed to the more radical campaigns of previous generations (It's Scotland's Oil, Scotland Free by '93 etc). The SNP MSPs have been remarkably well disciplined and on message through all of this, aside from two MSPs resigning the whip over NATO. This echoes the way that Tony Blair reformed the Labour party and what David Cameron did when winning the Tory leadership. Blair was basically tolerated by his party members because he won elections, although that changed following the Iraq invasion. Cameron hasn't managed to secure a majority, which has caused him problems with the right on his party.

If the vote is decisively No, say less than 40% Yes, how will the SNP react? Will it take a 'one-more-push' approach and continue on their current course or will a more radical agenda be sought? Activists often react to defeat by wanting to emphasise with core issues, the core vote. but if the relatively moderate proposals in the White Paper are defeated can anyone really believe that a majority will say yes to a more radical approach? If the vote is No but is close, with 45%+ voting Yes, then I'd say that the SNP will be justified in continuation of their current tactics and strategy.

There is zero chance of Yes being at 40%. 45% is much more realistic and even then i think that would be a huge defeat.

The problem the SNP face after the No vote will come when Salmond retires.

[Confidemus]

Uh... what?

Do you understand what this story is about you utter fool?

Its not a request about Scotland.

Why must you always be so abusive? It does you no favours.

[H_B]

Does nt it just sum up the NCC though that you are actually celebrating the suppression of a report which might inform the Scottish public?

How very SNP. Rely on bluster and arrogance, refuse to publish legal advice, lie to the public and celebrate the non publication of useful material. Disgusting.

[ICTChris]

Does nt it just sum up the NCC though that you are actually celebrating the suppression of a report which might inform the Scottish public?

How very SNP. Rely on bluster and arrogance, refuse to publish legal advice, lie to the public and celebrate the non publication of useful material. Disgusting.

I blame the fucking idiots who voted for them.

Scum.

[Fotbawmad]

Not sure I understand this point.

Are you saying that if you pay someone say £10k on benefits, there's no incentive for them to find a job?

I'd agree with that however the solution to that problem depends on your outlook.

You can cap benefits at a certain level which allows people to live without scrounging through the bins in the town centre and then force employers to pay a living wage which is set high enough to guarantee that work always pays more than benefits.

Or you can simply ignore the living wage and screw benefits down until enough people start dying of starvation that the problem goes away by itself.

I support the former. The latter is current Tory policy.

This debate requires a separate thread for it, One thing I will say there is an unfair stigma attached to it, When the poor get handouts from the government it's called welfare. When the middle class get handouts from the government it's called entitlement, but when the rich get handouts from the government it's called subsidy. Entitlements far outweigh welfare, and subsidies dwarf both welfare and entitlement combined. So the question is who are the real scroungers in society?