Friendly Banter?

[Kevin Haynes' Son]

This is a bit laughable is it not? On a weekend which has seen racist shouts at a game in Peterhead, our club decide it is wrong to have an opinion of players who, the fans (paying customers!!!) think are not putting in their whole effort. We pay to go watch and we should be entitled to an opinion. Wasn't down at Annan this weekend due to the fact i live far away at university, and severe lack of funds, and i am quite glad i did not make the trip down. From what i have seen at the games i have been at berwick for recently, DL's performances have been below what fans should expect of him, and surely we are allowed to have an opinion?

And the fact that nobody actually knows who set up the twitter parody page of him, which was quite clear it was a parody, and not in fact himself, how can anyone be blamed for it?

Fans are the heart of the club, without fans, clubs are nothing, and good performances attract, and keep fans.

[BerwickMad]

OT, but we got a refund a few years ago after the 9-2 howking at Peterhead! Well, free entry into the game at Raith the week after, but it was welcome all the same!

On the topic of players, there does seem to be a bit of a disconnect between the supporters and the players at Berwick. It's probably the fault of both sides.

[john bell]

This is a bit laughable is it not? On a weekend which has seen racist shouts at a game in Peterhead, our club decide it is wrong to have an opinion of players who, the fans (paying customers!!!) think are not putting in their whole effort. We pay to go watch and we should be entitled to an opinion. Wasn't down at Annan this weekend due to the fact i live far away at university, and severe lack of funds, and i am quite glad i did not make the trip down. From what i have seen at the games i have been at berwick for recently, DL's performances have been below what fans should expect of him, and surely we are allowed to have an opinion?

And the fact that nobody actually knows who set up the twitter parody page of him, which was quite clear it was a parody, and not in fact himself, how can anyone be blamed for it?

Fans are the heart of the club, without fans, clubs are nothing, and good performances attract, and keep fans.

'Our Club' hasn't decided anything. I was expressing an opinion as individual, which by your definition, I'm entitled to do, having paid to watch games for many years and now annually contributing at least the cost of a season ticket. Just because my opinion might be different from yours makes it no more or less valid.

[Redcar]

20 minutes after I said I'd finished.....

Firstly your train analogy is ridiculous for reasons stated. Support for a football club is a million miles deeper and very different to buying goods and services.

Second, OK something lost in interpretation of the word support. After 10 successive 4-0 defeats I'd still go and support my team but I might well get a bit vocal towards players AND management when we went 2 down after 5 minutes. If we were to only lose 1-0 though, i'd be cheering the boys off the pitch.

Third, yeah moaning at a player isn't going to make him play better. Agreed. Understandably develops though over periods of months.

Finally (definitely this time), players and managers (lee currie, tom hendrie, Sir Alex) regularly give players dogs abuse. Now, that really is counter productive and they get paid for it! Don't see anyone except Razor criticising them!

[marty_j]

Over a hundred at Annan and at shire be nice to give support some positivecomments works both ways. As I said I can see both sides of argument. One thing for sure surely next season we have to actually be pushing for title. Annan and the set up there should be what we are aiming for. Great club

[BerwickMad]

Agree with Martin there about the support. Almost a third of our core support at two away games in a row is great. More than half of the bus, which was full, were people under 30, and a lot of teenagers at their first away game. We also had a similar size and mix of crowd at Culter.

All we've heard about the fans from these games is about a smoke bomb and the reaction a player substitution.

It's all very well giving younger kids free season tickets and stuff, but let's not forget about how important it is to build a fan base in the ages of 14-25 too.

[pidmoondo]

Am really loving you lads giving annan the big thumbs up...nice lads thanks

[berwick-the-unbeatable]

Agree with Martin there about the support. Almost a third of our core support at two away games in a row is great. More than half of the bus, which was full, were people under 30, and a lot of teenagers at their first away game. We also had a similar size and mix of crowd at Culter.

All we've heard about the fans from these games is about a smoke bomb and the reaction a player substitution.

It's all very well giving younger kids free season tickets and stuff, but let's not forget about how important it is to build a fan base in the ages of 14-25 too.

This is actually a really good point, never really looked at it like that.

[Blackeyes]

A lot of talking here but not a lot of action. Can I offer a very simple solution to this? Get rid of DL he is a very poor footballer and not worth a place in the squad. I now think this matter is closed and you can thank me later.

[tescodave]

I am struggling to believe what a BRFC Director is posting,I really am. I was not there on Saturday due to morning shift work but even if SD was cheered or should I say jeered as he went off does JB really think that is out of order? If so it must be great up their on that moral high ground and I take my hat off to anyone who has never cheered the substitution of a crap player.

Feeling the pressure much John?

Must be,I cannot fathom out why other reason that crap has been posted.

[Gene Simmons Tongue]

The tenet of this thread seems to be that fans can be as abusive and venomous as they want about players and the club they support but even if there is the tiniest bit of complaint back the way that is totally unacceptable.

Some "fans" purely go to abuse players week in week out but I doubt very much they would have the bravado to actually go up and say the same things to the players face. There was one nobhead in the seated part where Berwick fans were on Saturday who basically screamed abuse and bile throughout the whole game, shame he couldn't shout any kind of support for his club.

Have to say though I wasn't aware of any incident myself on Saturday and was close to the dugout area.

[Gene Simmons Tongue]

If have to question the sanity of anyone who though that was actually DL on that twitter account so doubt there was a link between that account and someone assuming players were out on the piss the night before. I would assume the reaction on Saturday was totally unrelated, although I had also left the ground at the time so couldn't say for sure.

I do agree that people can go too far on twitter and here sometimes though. Especially when people hide behind aliases to abuse others and spread lies. It goes beyond football though. Some may see abuse by an alias as harmless fun, but it's really up to the target of the abuse to decide if it's harmless though. A lot of it is cowardly.

Btw, that doesn't mean I agree with the embarrassing drivel spouted by Colin Keenan on the Berwick Facebook on Sunday night with regards to the ribbing/banter we have on here with opposition fans. I still think it's a shame that that was deleted as it was fans having a conversation/argument under their own names. He was entitled to his point of view, and everyone else was entitled to defend themselves and to discuss to their own point of view in return. If people can't discuss things like that using their own name on the club Facebook, they will come onto here and use aliases.

Given that someone asked on the Peterhead racism incident thread whether it was any different to calling someone ginger I think we have to assume that some people could quite easily have the brains to believe anything they see on Twitter!

[Redcar]

The tenet of this thread seems to be that fans can be as abusive and venomous as they want about players and the club they support but even if there is the tiniest bit of complaint back the way that is totally unacceptable.

No it isn't

Some "fans" purely go to abuse players week in week out

No they don't.

[mid-table]

My opinion is worth the square root of bugger all, but for what it's worth.......

I watched football in England, from the Premiership right down to level 9, for about 6 years, and then came back up and started watching Berwick again.

I was genuinely astounded by the level of abuse dished out to players of the team the person supports, and referees, in the Scottish League.

You would just not get away with it in a comparative league in England, which is probably Conference South.

Secondly, I don't like taking people and making them cult heroes for being crap. The argument of trying to encourage them doesn't wash with me. The Thomson stuff a few years ago was spirit-crushingly cringeworthy.

Thirdly, this is nothing new. Someone mentioned Alan Neill earlier, the case that I always remember was 1994.

Berwick finished the season with 9 games unbeaten, winning the last 5 on the bounce conceding 2 goals in those 5 games. The team played some of the best stuff I have ever seen, but the left back (edit; was he right back, Alan Banks was left back I think) was a guy called Kevin Gibson who got pelters every time he touched the ball. 20 years on I still feel sorry for him as it was so unfair.

I would say that my attitude has probably mellowed compared with 10 years ago, I think for a lot of people age is a factor as well. There are still players I don't rate, but I would never shout abuse at them during a game, I can't see how that will make them play better.

[berwick-the-unbeatable]

Secondly, I don't like taking people and making them cult heroes for being crap. The argument of trying to encourage them doesn't wash with me. The Thomson stuff a few years ago was spirit-crushingly cringeworthy.

But for me that part of your post relates perfectly back to the point I made earlier - it's as though you can't win sometimes. The Thommo/DL stuff isn't designed to simply wind other fans up. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but the cult hero shite is genuinely designed to boost their confidence, and given both DL's best goalscoring form this season came when the cringeworthy crew was at it's best and given Thommo's best form in the Black and Gold came with the same, I don't understand how fellow fans can have such large complaints.

I know a few lads on the bus on Saturday who were on board simply because they'd heard the Dalziel 'hype' we'd created about him. One of them had even created quite possibly the worst rap in the history of mankind for him. Again, the same applies to the Thommo thing. In one of our more miserable seasons, we managed to tempt younger fans through the gate on the basis that there was a cult hero. If you're not prepared to let these new younger fans create some enjoyment amongst themselves, then I don't think you can complain in 10 years time when our fanbase is aging and we've not addressed the problem identified a few years back that the board are actively attempting to sort out.

Again, this has nothing to do with the original argument, but I just don't understand why people would make such a big deal about being critical of players when they don't support efforts to get behind those who clearly benefit from it, as Thomson and Dalziel did.

Interesting line of conversation this topic has ended up creating. I do agree with what John is saying in the main, but it's raised some interesting side points. Must say I'd be interested to hear tescodave's justification on board members feeling under pressure. This is the same board that has hired a previously successful manager for the first time in a while, posted successive profits, are looking into a new stadium and are pursuing a few other impressive avenues. Fair enough, we all acknowledge that action on the park has been disappointing in recent seasons, but surely you can't use that as justification when they've hired Cameron to rectify it; especially when he's working with a squad that isn't really his?

Also, on blackeyes post, I don't really see what that does. Dalziel can be frustrating but he can also be an important player at times. I think Shire away last week is a perfect example of what we miss when he isn't in the side. Fair enough he might not have been effective at Annan, but I do genuinely feel his role often goes unappreciated, though I doubt Redcar will agree with me on that one (Don't mean to tempt you out of another final post )

[Gene Simmons Tongue]

The tenet of this thread seems to be that fans can be as abusive and venomous as they want about players and the club they support but even if there is the tiniest bit of complaint back the way that is totally unacceptable.

No it isn't

Some "fans" purely go to abuse players week in week out

No they don't.

You must have spent ages coming up with that well thought out, fact heavy and reasoned logical argument to discount my assertions

[Razor Bill]

Some "fans" purely go to abuse players week in week out but I doubt very much they would have the bravado to actually go up and say the same things to the players face. There was one nobhead in the seated part where Berwick fans were on Saturday who basically screamed abuse and bile throughout the whole game, shame he couldn't shout any kind of support for his club.

Have to say though I wasn't aware of any incident myself on Saturday and was close to the dugout area.

I think you're plain wrong on this.

Do you actually know any fans who do what you claim?

Why would someone travel the best part of 200 miles, with the cost that entails, just to shout abuse at Berwick players?

I've supported Berwick for 38 years and don't miss many games home or away. In that time, i can't think of a single individual who turned up with the express intent of abusing his/her own players. If you make the effort to go and watch Berwick Rangers, surely you do that in the hope of them being successful rather than wanting them to fail?

I think this whole issue is getting blown out of proportion. I also think drawing parallels with the Peterhead incident is a misjudgement. It's closer in subject to what's going on outside the Berwick bubble with the selection of the England world cup squad, where Hodgson is currently railing against a 10,000-strong petition to exclude Tom Cleverly from selection. Is that any different to what we're discussing - the views of supporters about the relative merits of particular players? I don't necessarily agree with the petition but maybe it represents the frustration of supporters who are unable to exert any influence on team selection short of withdrawing their support.

Supporters are often much more knowledgeable about football than they're given credit for, and that includes their assessment of players - though it's rarely taken account of. I can think of occasions in the past where board members, who are no more qualified to comment on a player than Joe Public stood on the terracing, have felt compelled to share their views on players with management when they've had no locus to do that.

The supporter in the stand you refer to sounds like the father of a red-haired BRFC defender* (*not Dougie Brydon). He's gaining a certain degree of notoriety with his er, commentary.

[Yellow Feet]

There is also the point where players have targeted specific fans in the past. Have the club defended the fans in these cases?

[BerwickMad]

Even Yano did it! Haha. As I said though, there's a disconnect between most of the players and the fans. They visit Berwick for a couple hours every fortnight so fans don't really know any of them except seeing what they put on twitter. And most of that is about #bandits drinking sessions as opposed to anything to do with football. That probably has more to do with that Facebook comment than the fake DL account.

Different to Shire, where everyone one of their players were across applauding their fans at Shielfield. There's fault on both sides though.

[john bell]

I should stress that my original post was never intended to suggest that fans shouldn't have the right to form opinions about the merits of individual players or team performances - that's part of football and is a huge part of being a fan.

My post was intended to highlight issues with how those opinions are expressed, and from time to time, those opinions can surface in what might be considered a less than reasonable manner. And I do think there's a common thread between what happened at Peterhead and what happens to players all over the country, at stadiums and on park pitches, and that's the respect and decency that's shown from one individual to another (or the lack of).