Menzel Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 There is very little language barrier between The Ukraine and Russia. You can think of it as being some sort of Slavic dialect continuum. Polish is a bit further removed (Czech even more so) but still mutually intelligible to a certain extent. Basically, these peoples have a lot in common. The Lithuanian language is of course totally different, beinmg neither Slavic nor Germanic but rather a law unto itself, like Hungarian. As a fluent Czech speaker I can tell you right now that it is not mutually intelligible with Russian or Ukrainian (although not an expert, I have some experience with Russian also). I can understand Polish only slightly. People tend to band around 'mutually intelligible' very haphazardly, as if this is some sort of Czech and Slovak deal, which it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Think politics comes into this mutual intelligibility thing. Used to work with two Polish guys (long time ago and not in Scotland). One claimed vehemently that he couldn't understand Russian, because Polish and Russian are totally different languages. The other told me the other guy was an idiot and Poles, Ukrainians and Russians with no university education can chat away using their core vocabulary no problem. I often was in the room as the second guy chatted away with a Ukrainian (a complete nutter from a family that was involved with the SS during WWII, while the Polish guy's father had been in Auschwitz). Was told by the same guy that Czech and Polish were very different (Czechs are Germans pretending to be Slavs was how he put it in jocular terms) so seems to square with what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menzel Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 The main problem with Polish is that the verb "to look for" is the same as the Czech verb "to f**k" (szukasz vs šukat). I found this out last summer in a Krakow restaurant where I almost had to leave the establishment in laughing fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 There is very little language barrier between The Ukraine and Russia. You can think of it as being some sort of Slavic dialect continuum. Polish is a bit further removed (Czech even more so) but still mutually intelligible to a certain extent. Basically, these peoples have a lot in common. The Lithuanian language is of course totally different, beinmg neither Slavic nor Germanic but rather a law unto itself, like Hungarian. As a fluent Czech speaker I can tell you right now that it is not mutually intelligible with Russian or Ukrainian (although not an expert, I have some experience with Russian also). I can understand Polish only slightly. People tend to band around 'mutually intelligible' very haphazardly, as if this is some sort of Czech and Slovak deal, which it isn't. I took the bolded bit to mean that Poles speaking only Polish could make themselves understood - to an extent - to Ukrainians who could speak no Polish, but Czechs, speaking only Czech, would have great difficulty being understood by Ukrainians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menzel Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Poles would likely be alright, particularly to Western Ukrainians (around areas like Lviv etc). Czechs and Ukrainians would likely not understand much at all, i certainly can't understand Ukrainian but then again I'm not a native Czech speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 From the outside looking in have to wonder whether the best way to go would be a Czech-Slovak style velvet divorce. Hardly feasible, given Ukraine is a unitary state (unlike Czechoslovakia, which was effectively re-federalised from 1969), and has the Russian Navy's warm-water port to deal with. The Czech lands and Slovakia had fairly well-established boundaries, Ukraine's population does not, particularly in relation to Kiev. They are separate languages, although they came from the same root (Old East Slavic). Ukrainian is 60% lexically similar to Russian and 70% to Polish - in the same ball park to the lexical similarity of English to German and Dutch respectively which also had a common ancestor. 'Old East Slavic' and other historical-linguist claims in the region are predominantly bullshit, largely constructed and then redrawn by scholars with nationalist and pan-Slav orientations in the 19th Century to suit the agenda of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menzel Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Hardly feasible, given Ukraine is a unitary state (unlike Czechoslovakia, which was effectively re-federalised from 1969), and has the Russian Navy's warm-water port to deal with. The Czech lands and Slovakia had fairly well-established boundaries, Not saying I disagree, but what period are we talking about when we're talking about the Czech lands and Slovakia having "well-established boundaries"? I understand this is now a tangent but a fascinating question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Not saying I disagree, but what period are we talking about when we're talking about the Czech lands and Slovakia having "well-established boundaries"? I understand this is now a tangent but a fascinating question. The Bohemian "crownlands" - Bohemia, Moravia, Austrian Silesia - formed part of 'Austria' after 1867, and had long been a token 'kingdom' under the Habsburgs beforehand. 'Slovakia' was until 1918 simply a Slav-majority area in the north of the Hungarian kingdom, so was run under a largely separate Hungarian administration from 1867 as it had been for nine centuries. The borders between Moravia and Slovakia were therefore clear prior to 1918 - even in infrastructure such as the railway junctions - were upheld in the Constitution of the First Republic (as opposed to the ambiguous regional boundaries to the east, which awarded a large chunk of mixed-ethnicity counties to the Slovak administration against the claims of the Ruthenians), and have formed the basis for every state and federalising project since, from the 1938/9-45 Slovak autonomy and semi-fascist independent republic to the post 1992 divorce. Tl;Dr - It's like the border between Scotland and England, had Scotland been part of Ireland instead until a hundred years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 There are rival protests going on in Sevastopol, with those backing the new regime facing off against people seeking reunification with Russia. Crimean Tatar representatives are present. The Bekrut riot police have been disbanded by the new interior minister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menzel Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 It's nice to hear someone who knows so much about Czech history. I was interested in particularly the situation as you saw it re:borderlands and Subcarpathian Ruthenia, which was never that well defined and 'bolted on' to the first-third republic map for all intents and purposes, then ended up swinging between them, Hungary, USSR etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 COverage of the protests at the Crimean parliament here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_LFrMcoEm4#t=2270546 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Fox News offering possibly the best analysis of the situation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchWlsYpGJE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eednud Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Reuters reporting Putin has put troops on alert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 It's nice to hear someone who knows so much about Czech history. I was interested in particularly the situation as you saw it re:borderlands and Subcarpathian Ruthenia, which was never that well defined and 'bolted on' to the first-third republic map for all intents and purposes, then ended up swinging between them, Hungary, USSR etc. There's also Silesia to consider as well. A forgotten footnote of history is that Poland grabbed a piece of that from Czechoslovakia after the Munich Conference in 1938 at the same time Germany grabbed the Sudetenland. There is still a Polish minority in that part of the Czech Republic. Beyond that Crimea has autonomous status within Ukraine, so Ukraine isn't fully unitary. Hence all the shenanigans in Sebastopol today. It's the one part of Ukraine that would have some basis in constitutional terms for trying to do an Abkhazia or Kosovo style breakaway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BossHogg Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Looks like pro Russian troops controling airport in Crimea, could end in partition if this keeps up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audaces Fortuna Juvat Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Some fascinating stuff on here, albeit what is happening looks like it will end up in tears. I'm starting to wish I had gone down the history/geography route, rather than taking sciences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Looks like pro Russian troops controling airport in Crimea, could end in partition if this keeps up! The fun really starts if the larger eastern cities like Kharkov, Donetsk and Lugansk try to do a breakaway and so far there is zero sign of that happening probably to Putin's surprise/chagrin. Ukraine holds all the aces on Crimea at this point because water, gas and electricity are all supplied by land from Ukraine rather than across the sea from Russia, and there is a very large Tartar minority that are highly pro-Ukrainian and are arguably the truly indigenous population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky88 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 It's nice to hear someone who knows so much about Czech history knows how to use wikipedia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Woolshed Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Is this going the same way as Georgia in 08? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamthebam Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Ukraine's Eurovision winner Ruslana has been at the European Parliament in Strasbourg to show supporter to the Kiev protesters recently. Which gives me an excuse to post a fruity photo of her in leather.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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