THE KING Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 ....and now the West is about to arm (defensively mind you) pro western maltia in eastern Ukraine....maybe have a check on Liveleak for the result of our freedom fighting buddies action... ..http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dff_1423047584 ....warning gaphic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBud Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Just noticed Jock001 is banned, pleasing. The most corrupt country in Europe according to the Graun t today. http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine You've got to feel for some of the residents, it does seem like an absolute bin of a country that has been systematically raped by it's representatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Just noticed Jock001 is banned, pleasing. The most corrupt country in Europe according to the Graun t today. http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine You've got to feel for some of the residents, it does seem like an absolute bin of a country that has been systematically raped by it's representatives. Poor Tedi what did he do this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetterlund Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 ....and now the West is about to arm (defensively mind you) pro western maltia in eastern Ukraine....maybe have a check on Liveleak for the result of our freedom fighting buddies action... ..http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dff_1423047584 ....warning gaphic. This is absolutely insane from the US. Russia has repeatedly said they will not allow a bloodbath in east Ukraine and will become militarily involved to prevent it. This has already been a disastrous failed venture from the US and the psychopaths in charge should stop digging before they drag Europe into a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 This is absolutely insane from the US. Russia has repeatedly said they will not allow a bloodbath in east Ukraine and will become militarily involved to prevent it. This has already been a disastrous failed venture from the US and the psychopaths in charge should stop digging before they drag Europe into a war. I agree that the US should stay out of it, but Russia is doing more than anyone to create a bloodbath. Do you really still believe RT and Russia aren't putting arms and men into Ukraine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetterlund Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I agree that the US should stay out of it, but Russia is doing more than anyone to create a bloodbath. Do you really still believe RT and Russia aren't putting arms and men into Ukraine? I don't form any of my opinions on the basis of what RT puts out. They are probably about as impartial as most of the western mainstream media, although it's important to see things from both sides for balance. I prefer to make my own mind up from what I see and read from individual verifiable sources, for example the Chief of Staff of the Ukrainian army who said last week that they are not fighting against Russian army units. http://lifenews.ru/news/149116 To save you translating the headline is "General Staff of Ukraine - In the Donbas No Russian Army". He goes on to say categorically that the Ukrainian army is not fighting against Russian army troops. This completely contradicts the repeated accusations of 'invasions' from the PM and president, and would explain why even in this day and age when everyone has a camera phone, no-one has managed to get a picture of a Russian tank or troop out of the thousands 'invading' Ukraine. The fighters in the east probably do have some Russian weapons - there will no doubt be foreign militias and it's probably not the tightest border in the world to smuggle arms across. Many of them are Russian citizens so can travel freely. But most of their equipment has been taken from the Kiev army, or was brought over by defectors. Which sounds more like the aggressor party here - the one who overthrew a democratically-elected government and planted a head of state friendly to their interests before attacking the regions of the country which didn't recognise the coup's legitimacy, or the side defending themselves from being exterminated by their own sham government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 What should be clear is that this is an unwinnable war for Kiev. The problem is their backers i.e. the IMF (which is really just an arm of NATO). Arrogantly think if they throw enough money at it. It will work out for them in the end. What they should be asking themselves is what is motivating these separatists? Just noticed Jock001 is banned, pleasing.The most corrupt country in Europe according to the Graun t today.http://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraineYou've got to feel for some of the residents, it does seem like an absolute bin of a country that has been systematically raped by it's representatives. Yup, even most South American countries have a higher standard of living compared to Ukraine. Outside meddling in their countries affairs is no doubt playing a huge factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I don't form any of my opinions on the basis of what RT puts out. They are probably about as impartial as most of the western mainstream media, although it's important to see things from both sides for balance. I prefer to make my own mind up from what I see and read from individual verifiable sources, for example the Chief of Staff of the Ukrainian army who said last week that they are not fighting against Russian army units. http://lifenews.ru/news/149116 To save you translating the headline is "General Staff of Ukraine - In the Donbas No Russian Army". He goes on to say categorically that the Ukrainian army is not fighting against Russian army troops. This completely contradicts the repeated accusations of 'invasions' from the PM and president, and would explain why even in this day and age when everyone has a camera phone, no-one has managed to get a picture of a Russian tank or troop out of the thousands 'invading' Ukraine. The fighters in the east probably do have some Russian weapons - there will no doubt be foreign militias and it's probably not the tightest border in the world to smuggle arms across. Many of them are Russian citizens so can travel freely. But most of their equipment has been taken from the Kiev army, or was brought over by defectors. Which sounds more like the aggressor party here - the one who overthrew a democratically-elected government and planted a head of state friendly to their interests before attacking the regions of the country which didn't recognise the coup's legitimacy, or the side defending themselves from being exterminated by their own sham government? I assume you mean this, the link didn't work for me: Somehow members of the Russian army claiming to be on holiday doesn't cut it for me, even if they're not in their standard uniforms. Ukraine is turning into a full scale civil war, like the former Yugoslavia, and hardly any Ukrainians want it. The Russians are playing a game with the West, and it's the Ukrainians who are the patsies. I don't think anyone doubts the overthrown leader of Ukraine was corrupt, as was the one before him, and before him, and I don't doubt that the Western powers would have been happy for him to be overthrown in favour of a more Euro-friendly leader. Whether they would have cared about it so much to make it happen I seriously doubt. What's the gain? An impoverished country with obsolete industries and a totally corrupt oligarchy. If the Ukrainians were left alone to sort it out amongst themselves it would have been by now, and it's the KGB boy, the same one who turned Chechnya from a solvable struggle for independence into a holocaust and who is desperate for a heroic legacy, Putin, who is turning it into a bloodbath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The 'Ukrainian' solution was perceived by powerful elements within the east of the country to be an unacceptably pro-Western, Ukrainian nationalist option: hence why the Russians have been able to gain a foothold, supporting another part of a post-Soviet state that doesn't particularly wish to be governed by its state capital. Unless Kiev realises that a federal, not unitary state is more appropriate - and I suspect far much has occurred even to revive this - then there can be no satisfactory solution for both sides, and this background to the conflict isn't even remotely the responsibility of Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The 'Ukrainian' solution was perceived by powerful elements within the east of the country to be an unacceptably pro-Western, Ukrainian nationalist option: hence why the Russians have been able to gain a foothold, supporting another part of a post-Soviet state that doesn't particularly wish to be governed by its state capital. Unless Kiev realises that a federal, not unitary state is more appropriate - and I suspect far much has occurred even to revive this - then there can be no satisfactory solution for both sides, and this background to the conflict isn't even remotely the responsibility of Russia. In my understanding of it, very limited I admit, western Ukraine has offered a federal system more than once, and each time there's been an escalation of violence from the East, encouraged at least if not directly created by Russia. I thought Putin would have been happy nicking back Crimea, maybe domestic considerations are pushing him into carrying on stirring it up in the rest of Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zetterlund Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I don't think there's any doubt that the US engineered the coup - Obama pretty much admitted as much to CNN the other day, in his words "brokering a deal to transition power". They have plenty of previous for doing this all over the world for decades. Plenty more damning evidence out there against them, such as the leaked phone call from the State Dept officials discussing who would make up the new government before it had actually happened. Ukraine may be a bin of a country but geopolitically it would be quite a gain for the US sphere of influence to absorb another puppet state on Russia's border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 In my understanding of it, very limited I admit, western Ukraine has offered a federal system more than once, and each time there's been an escalation of violence from the East, encouraged at least if not directly created by Russia. I thought Putin would have been happy nicking back Crimea, maybe domestic considerations are pushing him into carrying on stirring it up in the rest of Ukraine. Do you have evidence that Kiev has indeed offered a federal system? The term is very important (leaving aise the Russian 'federal' plan ie make Ukraine's districts 'federal' within Russia itself). http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/20/ukraine-government-declares-ceasefire-poroshenko-pro-russian-separatists If the Ukrainian government can only offer a fairly vague claim to giving more powers to regions within Ukraine in the middle of an armed conflict, then it's pretty clear that it poses a major problem to the resolution of the crisis. That offer was a farcical as Poroshenko's promises of total military victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Do you have evidence that Kiev has indeed offered a federal system? The term is very important (leaving aise the Russian 'federal' plan ie make Ukraine's districts 'federal' within Russia itself). http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/20/ukraine-government-declares-ceasefire-poroshenko-pro-russian-separatists If the Ukrainian government can only offer a fairly vague claim to giving more powers to regions within Ukraine in the middle of an armed conflict, then it's pretty clear that it poses a major problem to the resolution of the crisis. That offer was a farcical as Poroshenko's promises of total military victory. I don't know the detail or how serious Poroschenko's offers have been, but without Russian military interference I think the corrupt Eastern billionaires would have done a deal with the corrupt Western billionaires by now, and ordinary Ukrainians would have been allowed to carry on with their shitty exploited lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Ukrainian parliament just passed a new law which allows deserters to be executed, but it goes even further than that. As it allows commanders to use force against their own units if they show resistance, disobedience or a threat towards them. This is something right out of Stalinist Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Ukrainian parliament just passed a new law which allows deserters to be executed, but it goes even further than that. As it allows commanders to use force against their own units if they show resistance, disobedience or a threat towards them. This is something right out of Stalinist Russia. America still has the death sentence on the books for desertion, and any army will use force if their soldiers disobey orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Thought they were supposed to be Nazis rather than Stalinists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirko Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Here is something interesting about games in Ukraine, see the letter. http://i.imgur.com/MoyS84n.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 America still has the death sentence on the books for desertion, and any army will use force if their soldiers disobey orders. Knew a guy that had been in the Army and had served on the border between the Greek and Turkish bits of Cyprus. He mentioned one time while on patrol late at night they heard a single gunshot, and a guy that had been there a while told him it was probably a Turkish officer taking matters into his own hands after finding a guard asleep on duty – wasn’t the first time it had happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Knew a guy that had been in the Army and had served on the border between the Greek and Turkish bits of Cyprus. He mentioned one time while on patrol late at night they heard a single gunshot, and a guy that had been there a while told him it was probably a Turkish officer taking matters into his own hands after finding a guard asleep on duty wasnt the first time it had happened.He could just have given him a wee shake. Letting a gun off is excessive, everybody would be up all night after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE KING Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 That (peaceful protest) last year that ended up with dozens dead, that was defiantly not started by protestors... ..http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31359021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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