Ukraine

[AberdeenBud]

Great piece.

Bit of an eye opener how much of this clusterfuck was sleepwalked into.

[Zetterlund]

In a motion put to the UN General Assembly last week calling for the condemnation of neo-nazi movements and practices in Europe, just 3 of the 173 nations voted against it. Who were these clearly uncivilised, backwards, fascist countries you ask? Ukraine, the USA and Canada.

http://www.un.org/en/ga/third/69/docs/voting_sheets/L56.Rev1.pdf

Kiev and it's sugar daddies obviously couldn't vote against the ideologies and policies of their own shiny new government, the world's only nazi regime.

Did this make the news? I'd have thought a lot of people would like to know what kind of nation we have a 'special relationship' with.

[welshbairn]

In a motion put to the UN General Assembly last week calling for the condemnation of neo-nazi movements and practices in Europe, just 3 of the 173 nations voted against it. Who were these clearly uncivilised, backwards, fascist countries you ask? Ukraine, the USA and Canada.

http://www.un.org/en/ga/third/69/docs/voting_sheets/L56.Rev1.pdf

Kiev and it's sugar daddies obviously couldn't vote against the ideologies and policies of their own shiny new government, the world's only nazi regime.

Did this make the news? I'd have thought a lot of people would like to know what kind of nation we have a 'special relationship' with.

Given that Russia wrote it and got North Korea to co-sign the proposal, I doubt they were being entirely sincere.

Speaking in explanation of vote before vote, the representative of the United States said she had joined other countries in expressing abhorrence for attempts to promote Nazi ideology, and condemning all forms of religious or ethnic hatred. Her delegation was concerned about the overt political motives that had driven the main sponsor of the current resolution. That Government had employed those phrases in the current crisis in Ukraine. That was offensive and disrespectful to those who had suffered at the hands of Nazi regimes. Therefore, the United States would vote against the resolution.

http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/C.3/69/L.56/Rev.1&Lang=E

[Zetterlund]

Given that Russia wrote it and got North Korea to co-sign the proposal, I doubt they were being entirely sincere.

http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/C.3/69/L.56/Rev.1&Lang=E

I see what you did there, cherrypicking North Korea from the list of 30 co-signees.

There were still another 150+ countries who didn't find it too disrespectful to agree with it.

I think Russia have a legitimate concern seeing a Nazi regime installed next door, and backed and armed by the west.

[welshbairn]

I see what you did there, cherrypicking North Korea from the list of 30 co-signees.

There were still another 150+ countries who didn't find it too disrespectful to agree with it.

I think Russia have a legitimate concern seeing a Nazi regime installed next door, and backed and armed by the west.

Hardly cherry picking, here's the whole list. Play spot the liberal if you like, there are a couple.

Bangladesh, Belarus, Benin, Bolivia (Plurinational State of), Burkina Faso,

Brazil, Côte d’Ivoire, Cuba, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Equatorial

Guinea, Guinea, India, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Myanmar, Namibia, Nicaragua,

the Niger, Nigeria, Pakistan, Russian Federation, Rwanda, Seychelles, Sri Lanka,

the Sudan, Syrian Arab Republic, Turkmenistan, United Republic of Tanzania,

Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of) and Viet Nam

[jock001]

I see what you did there, cherrypicking North Korea from the list of 30 co-signees.

There were still another 150+ countries who didn't find it too disrespectful to agree with it.

I think Russia have a legitimate concern seeing a Nazi regime installed next door, and backed and armed by the west.

Could you tell us how the Ukraine regime is nazi?

Better still, could you tell us a single aspect of fascism that Russia hasn't fully implemented?

There's right wing murderous scum on both sides here, the difference is they aren't fully in control in the Ukraine and the Ukraine isn't a superpower with lots of nukes.

Hardly cherry picking, here's the whole list. Play spot the liberal if you like, there are a couple.

So pretty much an effort to legitimise every other type of right wing oppressive regime.

Lets face it, Russia isn't as much of a country as a racket.

[vikingTON]

Better still, could you tell us a single aspect of fascism that Russia hasn't fully implemented?

Oh I dunno, probably economic corporatism, the complete removal of democratic elections, the complete lack of interest in autarky by a regime dependent upon flogging natural resources to the global market.

For you to cry about Ukraine's government being termed 'fascist' - which it isn't, although many groups despatched to the east to fight with the clear blessing of the Kiev government are fascist or neo-Nazi - only to then set up an even more absurd straw man that Russia is in fact a fascist state is absolutely hilarious.

[vikingTON]

So pretty much an effort to legitimise every other type of right wing oppressive regime.

Are you claiming that Cuba and Venezuela are right-wing regimes, or that the world's largest democracy, India, is in fact "repressive"?

Bizarre stuff.

[jock001]

Oh I dunno, probably economic corporatism, the complete removal of democratic elections, the complete lack of interest in autarky by a regime dependent upon flogging natural resources to the global market.

For you to cry about Ukraine's government being termed 'fascist' - which it isn't, although many groups despatched to the east to fight with the clear blessing of the Kiev government are fascist or neo-Nazi - only to then set up an even more absurd straw man that Russia is in fact a fascist state is absolutely hilarious.

So you're claiming the oligarchs in russia aren't extremely powerful (economic corporatism), Mussolinis Italy wasn't fascist because it didn't practice autarky and that to be a fascist nation you need to completely get rid of democracy meaning that the majority of parties which call themselves fascist actually aren't?

Has there ever been a single person or organisation on earth which fits your definition of fascist?

(Cue VT running and hiding which is his usual practice in threads where he gets made to look dumb.)

[vikingTON]

The point being in fact that fascism is a loose collection of prescriptive values, yet next to none of which actually resemble Vladimir Putin's Russia. It's also clear that you don't actually know what "economic corporatism" means, going by your laughable, piss-poor equation to rich oligarchs being "extremely powerful".

Indeed, if we were to use your description of economic corporatism, then Ukraine would be a corporatist state to an even greater degree than Russia. A state whose own president is a billionaire oligarch, and whose campaign was directly supported by fellow oligarchs in turn.

Better luck next time.

[jock001]

Except if you were literate you'd realise that I've not defended the regime in the Ukraine like you have the one in Russsia.

Would you like another go?

Still waiting for a single person or organisation which satisfies your definition of fascist since even mussolini doesn't.

[vikingTON]

Where have I defended the regime in Russia? Be very specific as you're on last strike already.

[jock001]

Where have I defended the regime in Russia? Be very specific as you're on last strike already.

Oh I dunno, probably economic corporatism, the complete removal of democratic elections, the complete lack of interest in autarky by a regime dependent upon flogging natural resources to the global market.

For you to cry about Ukraine's government being termed 'fascist' - which it isn't, although many groups despatched to the east to fight with the clear blessing of the Kiev government are fascist or neo-Nazi - only to then set up an even more absurd straw man that Russia is in fact a fascist state is absolutely hilarious.

That's you inventing your own definition of fascism to try and paint russia in a better light.

One which also paints mussolini's Italy as not being fascist.

Feel free to post that definition btw. That should be quite funny I'd imagine.

[vikingTON]

Erm no champ. I asked you provide a specific example of me defending the regime in Russia. Defining fascism and pointing out that Russia isn't a fascist state is not actually a defence of the Russian regime. It is, however, a defence of basic facts against your shrill nonsense.

Unlucky.

[welshbairn]

Feel free to post that definition btw. That should be quite funny I'd imagine.

I think the origin is to do with Romans beating plebs with faggots. Not sure how that would play in Russia or the Ukraine. Or Downing Street for that matter.

[vikingTON]

Oh and while you're stewing in that fail, the reason why Mussolini's Italy doesn't tie in with all of the principles of fascism is because... the practice of state power precluded the implementation of every one of their back of a fag packet ideas, as also proved to be the case in Nazi Germany. Both regimes were however quite clearly were motivated by fascism, as were several of the satellite states, but none of them actually managed to implement the full programme envisioned before they were brought down, and Italy's case struggled to even reduce the entrenched authority of institutions like the Catholic Church.

There is on the other hand absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Vladimir Putin or the rest of the major players in the Russian government are following policies with the aim of fascism or consciously using this as a governing philosophy.

[welshbairn]

Oh and while you're stewing in that fail, the reason why Mussolini's Italy doesn't tie in with all of the principles of fascism is because... the practice of state power precluded the implementation of every one of their back of a fag packet ideas, as also proved to be the case in Nazi Germany. Both regimes were however quite clearly were motivated by fascism, as were several of the satellite states, but none of them actually managed to implement the full programme envisioned before they were brought down, and Italy's case struggled to even reduce the entrenched authority of institutions like the Catholic Church.

There is on the other hand absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Vladimir Putin or the rest of the major players in the Russian government are following policies with the aim of fascism or consciously using this as a governing philosophy.

Putin has however taken away the rights of people to elect their own regional Governors, and made critical journalism about the most dangerous profession you could have. He's no need to attack the Russian Orthodox Church, they're more fascist than he is.

[vikingTON]

Well yeah, Putin's government is authoritarian in many aspects and also enjoys centralising power. That doesn't make it notably different from any other form of authoritarian government from the political left to far-right, or indeed too much different from Russian government over several centuries. The Tsars and the Bolsheviks also weren't fascists though.

[Zetterlund]

Could you tell us how the Ukraine regime is nazi?

Better still, could you tell us a single aspect of fascism that Russia hasn't fully implemented?

There's right wing murderous scum on both sides here, the difference is they aren't fully in control in the Ukraine and the Ukraine isn't a superpower with lots of nukes.

They might not describe themselves as a Nazi regime but they are behaving as such, and clearly don't mind being openly associated with these fascist groups fighting alongside the Kiev army with SS emblems on their uniforms.

Suggesting that Russia and its nukes are a threat is another favourite line in our media, and laughable considering the remarkable restraint it has shown in the face of intense provocation. It really is bizarre that NATO expand to the Russian border then say Russia is posing a threat at its borders, loony stuff.

I'm not saying the country is without its faults, of course.

[jock001]

Putin has however taken away the rights of people to elect their own regional Governors, and made critical journalism about the most dangerous profession you could have. He's no need to attack the Russian Orthodox Church, they're more fascist than he is.

He also has been known to have his political opponents arrested or murdered

He has 'nationalised' certain industries by taking them from oligarchs who don't support him and giving them to oligarchs who do.

He uses state owned media as propaganda devices which tell outright lies.

He has tried to enforce a cult of personality around himself using his propaganda empire.

He has picked certain demographics in his country (such as homosexuals) to demonise and give his supporters a domestic enemy.

He has set up an organisation to indoctrinate children to his political beliefs. The nashi.

He has set up a system where political dissent is punishable by imprisonment. In russia you need state permission for any protest or political gathering but you only get permission if you're pro putin. Note the demonstrations about homosexuality as a case in point. Demo's against homnosexuality are given permission or if no permission is applied for, they are ignored. Demos for equal rights are not given permission and attenders are arrested. If 2 unsanctioned demos meet up, only people with political beliefs against putin are arrested.

He is a fascist, plain and simple.

He has literally set up a system where women can be whipped in the streets in front of the worlds media just for criticising him. Remember pussy riot at Sochi?