EU membership

[Baxter Parp]

Uh no. I'm saying that EU law lets member-states do most of what they want to do most of the time with regard to the formulation of citizenship laws. Nothing more nothing less.

So in what specific circumstances will Scottish citizens be stripped of their EU citizenship?

[Ad Lib]

So in what specific circumstances will Scottish citizens be stripped of their EU citizenship?

There is no such thing as a Scottish citizen.

UK citizens with some sort of Scottish connection can be stripped of their UK citizenship, and by extension, their EU citizenship (a necessary corollay unless they are by coincidence a dual-citizen of another member-state) for ANY reason it considers to be in the public interest, provided that they can demonstrate that that removal is proportionate. The CJEU has jurisdiction to investigate the circumstances in which citizenship is in effect withdrawn and to apply the legal proportionality test, one with which the EU institutions are very familiar across most if not all decision-making related to that body, and may prevent a member-state from acting in such a way only to the extent that their actions can be found to be disproportionate.

Reasons that might tend towards disproportionality would include situations where it renders someone stateless. They would include where there was discrimination that wasn't justified with reference to objective criteria (e.g. a measure which only removed citizenship from women, black people or homosexuals).

Citizenship can, however, be removed for a whole host of reasons, particular to a country's own set of circumstances. Austria heavily restricts dual citizenship, for a number of public policy reasons, including territorial solidarity, economic reasons, national security reasons and more. In Rottmann they said it was legitimate for member-states to confer and withdraw citizenship on principles of reciprocity of rights and duties. This would be relevant for the United Kingdom when considering the desirability of allowing people who live in another country, vote in another country, have rights to state benefits and are treated in a certain way for the purposes of state taxes and the like, to hold UK citizenship in addition to this.

When parts of the Empire became independent from the UK, nationality law was restricted considerably to control the right of people to come to the UK and to settle here. Citizenship rights give unconditional right of abode and to be treated differently from migrants in the state benefits system. For example, after Scottish independence, someone with UK-Scottish dual-nationality would be exempt from the restrictions on claiming for job-related benefits that, for example, someone with Polish citizenship is presently subject to, on *both* sides of the border. With the benefits systems having been decoupled from one another, it would be economically disadvantageous for the United Kingdom that Scots would be entitled to move to the UK and use the benefits system and/or other state services there on more preferential terms than for other Brits to go to Scotland and do the same thing.

That is an example of a general public interest justification for withdrawing UK-citizenship from those acquiring Scottish citizenship, and by necessary implication, withdrawing also any EU citizenship rights they previously exercised as a corrollary of being a UK citizen.

[~~~]

You know after indy people in Scotland won't lose their UK citizenship either,

[H_B]

Sorry I prefer to get my legal advice from trained experienced legal experts in the field in question.

.

He s not giving legal advice.

[Todders]

Interesting. http://www.yesscotland.net/news/independent-scotland-would-continue-be-eu-member-says-european-commission-expert

No doubt Ad Lib will be on shortly trying to claim he knows more about the EU than Graham Avery who let's face it is only the Honorary Director-General of the European Commission and a Senior Adviser at the European Policy Centre.

Whereas Ad Lib is a spotty wee student type who's knowledge and experience VASTLY outweighs that of Mr Avery.

[BossHogg]

Interesting. http://www.yesscotland.net/news/independent-scotland-would-continue-be-eu-member-says-european-commission-expert

No doubt Ad Lib will be on shortly trying to claim he knows more about the EU than Graham Avery who let's face it is only the Honorary Director-General of the European Commission and a Senior Adviser at the European Policy Centre.

Whereas Ad Lib is a spotty wee student type who's knowledge and experience VASTLY outweighs that of Mr Avery.

He's been consistent on this issue for years, it would actually be almost impossible not to have Scotland as members.

[H_B]

Have you just arrived from the year 2012?

[Ad Lib]

Interesting. http://www.yesscotland.net/news/independent-scotland-would-continue-be-eu-member-says-european-commission-expert

No doubt Ad Lib will be on shortly trying to claim he knows more about the EU than Graham Avery who let's face it is only the Honorary Director-General of the European Commission and a Senior Adviser at the European Policy Centre.

Whereas Ad Lib is a spotty wee student type who's knowledge and experience VASTLY outweighs that of Mr Avery.

Judging by the quoted remarks, I do know more about EU law than Graham Avery. The fact that Scots are currently EU citizens is irrelevant, and his remarks don't explain how you can circumvent the treaty.

[Thumper]

The fact that Scots are currently EU citizens is irrelevant

Because it would be a perfectly normal, run-of-the-mill event for the EU to strip citizenship from over five million people.

[AberdeenBud]

I think AdLib is normally good value, but he's waddled into that one.

[Ad Lib]

Because it would be a perfectly normal, run-of-the-mill event for the EU to strip citizenship from over five million people.

I didn't say that.

And, as we've pointed out for about 464 times now, Scotland not being in the EU would not, in and of itself, strip a SINGLE person in Scotland of EU citizenship. They could retain that EU citizenship by simply remaining a British citizen.

What is clear, is that it is no basis in law for saying that Scotland would be exempted from having to apply for member-state status, either through the Art 49 accession provisions or through an Art 48 treaty amendment, which imposes, uh, the same ratification burdens and raises the same issues about terms of membership.

You really have to applaud this level of arrogance.

5 million Scots being EU members irrelevant? Circumventing the treaty?

FFS. Meanwhile, away from the dusty recesses of your lecture notes and back on planet earth where things actually get done, politics will resolve this not law. An experienced lawyer would know that. A student wouldn't.

Literally no one is saying that politics won't resolve this issue. But the law frames it. And the law says Scotland will not automatically be a member-state of the EU on secession. Even the SNP (now) admit this. Read the White Paper.

[Baxter Parp]

http://m.neurope.eu/article/if-scotland-says-yes-so-should-barroso-and-europe

[strichener]

I didn't say that.

And, as we've pointed out for about 464 times now, Scotland not being in the EU would not, in and of itself, strip a SINGLE person in Scotland of EU citizenship. They could retain that EU citizenship by simply remaining a British citizen.

What is clear, is that it is no basis in law for saying that Scotland would be exempted from having to apply for member-state status, either through the Art 49 accession provisions or through an Art 48 treaty amendment, which imposes, uh, the same ratification burdens and raises the same issues about terms of membership.

Literally no one is saying that politics won't resolve this issue. But the law frames it. And the law says Scotland will not automatically be a member-state of the EU on secession. Even the SNP (now) admit this. Read the White Paper.

In my best impersonation of H_B. Please substatiate this quantative claim.

How can we retain EU membership by retaining British Citizenship? I thought that the UK was the member of the EU not Britain.

[Ad Lib]

In my best impersonation of H_B. Please substatiate this quantative claim.

No.

How can we retain EU membership by retaining British Citizenship? I thought that the UK was the member of the EU not Britain.

EU citizenship is conferred on anyone holding the requisite "nationality" of a member-state. What this means in practice is those holding citizenship. The domestic laws concerning nationality in the United Kingdom confer different classes of nationality, the one held by virtually everyone here being "British citizenship". I refer you to section 1 of the British Nationality Act 1981.

[strichener]

No.

EU citizenship is conferred on anyone holding the requisite "nationality" of a member-state. What this means in practice is those holding citizenship. The domestic laws concerning nationality in the United Kingdom confer different classes of nationality, the one held by virtually everyone here being "British citizenship". I refer you to section 1 of the British Nationality Act 1981.

Interesting reading. Given that section 35 is very particular in relation to dual citizenship, how do we remain British?

[Ad Lib]

Interesting reading. Given that section 35 is very particular in relation to dual citizenship, how do we remain British?

That relates to British subjects, not British citizens. They are different classes of nationality.

[Tryfield]

Is it right enough Eck has been ower by sooking shite out of rectums?

I've been doon sooth for a couple of days, nowt on English telly aboot him. Oh dear.

"Here's wur fish, here's wur oil....can we be Europeans?" Tramp.

[Confidemus]

Is it right enough Eck has been ower by sooking shite out of rectums?

I've been doon sooth for a couple of days, nowt on English telly aboot him. Oh dear.

"Here's wur fish, here's wur oil....can we be Europeans?" Tramp.

^^^ utter utter word salad

[Mr Bairn]

^^^ utter utter word salad

Is that you answer to everything?

[Ad Lib]

Is that you answer to everything?

Not sure if serious.