LongTimeLurker Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I don't see why they couldn't just put the highest team below Brora, that's willing and able to meet the SPFL standards, into the Play Offs. if confined to the top three in the final table or something like that would be sensible. They needed a 3/4 majority to get the merger passed by the SFL, so setting something up that is likely to only happen sporadically maybe helped to sway a few SFL3 fence-sitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I prefer the current system where every team has something to play for. With a few games to go, Brechin could have feasibly been both relegated or promoted and I'd rather that situation over a HL style league which is packed full of near-pointless mid-table games towards the end. That's a separate thread in itself though. However, you're yet to answer my previous question regarding Brechin with the real current situation btw. Is it acceptable or not to refuse promotion based on preference alone and if not, why should Brora be allowed to do the same if they do indeed have the facilities. I get the feeling you're missing the point that Brora want to push a vote even if they don't have to upgrade their facilities. It's probably against the rules for Brechin to do that. It's not against the rules for Brora not to upgrade their floodlights, and fail to meet the SPFL criteria. The vote Brora would have would be on whether or not to upgrade their floodlights. All perfectly legal. There are no meaningless matches in the Highland League, every team has historical grudges against all the other. And we now have handicap betting! By the way, I think if Brora win the League they'll probably go ahead with promotion, their position has softened a lot and it looks like their board is split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 The vote Brora would have would be on whether or not to upgrade their floodlights. Incorrect, based on that article posted earlier in the thread: "And should they meet the criteria and repeat their league success, the club's main backer Ben MacKay says they would let the fans to decide on their future." It's probably against the rules for Brechin to do that. So why should Brora be allowed based on the quote above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 It's probably against the rules for Brechin to do that. It's not against the rules for Brora not to upgrade their floodlights, and fail to meet the SPFL criteria. The vote Brora would have would be on whether or not to upgrade their floodlights. All perfectly legal. All that would do, in my eyes, is postpone the crisis point for a year? If they came back the next season, won the HL again, but threw up their hands to say "oops! still not upgraded our floodlighting! staying where we are!" then it'd have become tantamount to just declining promotion. They'd have the means to have improved the brightness, and have had a year to do so (plus any waivers/grace). You couldn't have a club doing that year-on-year. How many clubs ballot their fans over the lux levels of their floodlights anyway? If it walks and quacks like a duck declining promotion, it probably is one... And MacKay appears to say they'd ballot the fans even if they meet the criteria, anyway, although it's unclear how this would actually work. Anyway, all will be clear come April 2015!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Remember though that quite a few Brora players will be picking up their pensions soon, and arthritis will be kicking in. They spent about the same money the season before last and only scraped mid table, 4 places below Clach who came 5th. There's no guarantee they'll walk away with the league as they did last season. If a team like Formartine won they'd jump at the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Voting on the floodlights has exactly the same effect as voting over promotion, but within the rules. That's the way they'd do it I know this, but this would only apply if they didn't meet the SPFL criteria. From the way I read it that link is saying is that they'd still go for a vote even if they already happened to meet the criteria and didn't have to upgrade the floodlights and it's that and only that which I have the big issue with. Of course, that would probably require a relaxation of the rules but the authorities already have different rules for the different leagues, e.g. compulsory undersoil heating for the top league. And MacKay appears to say they'd ballot the fans even if they meet the criteria, anyway, although it's unclear how this would actually work. I'm glad I'm not the only one getting this. Eta: What would realistically happen in the absurd situation that Cowdenbeath won the Championship this season? Whatever it is, it should be applied to the whole Scottish league structure imo. Would the team in 2nd get automatic promotion, would it be void and the runner up of the playoffs get that extra promotion space or would Cowden be forced to play in the Premiership whilst groundsharing with e.g. Raith / Dunfermline? Also (just out of interest), was Caley's time at Pittodrie fully optional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nowhereman Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 I know this, but this would only apply if they didn't meet the SPFL criteria. From the way I read it that link is saying is that they'd still go for a vote even if they already happened to meet the criteria and didn't have to upgrade the floodlights and it's that and only that which I have the big issue with. Of course, that would probably require a relaxation of the rules but the authorities already have different rules for the different leagues, e.g. compulsory undersoil heating for the top league. I'm glad I'm not the only one getting this. Eta: What would realistically happen in the absurd situation that Cowdenbeath won the Championship this season? Whatever it is, it should be applied to the whole Scottish league structure imo. Would the team in 2nd get automatic promotion, would it be void and the runner up of the playoffs get that extra promotion space or would Cowden be forced to play in the Premiership whilst groundsharing with e.g. Raith / Dunfermline? Also (just out of interest), was Caley's time at Pittodrie fully optional? If Cowdenbeath won the Championship could they not play in the Premier ? I understood that ground restrictions had been removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 If Cowdenbeath won the Championship could they not play in the Premier ? I understood that ground restrictions had been removed. To that level? Ooooft! Surely all the terracing would be closed or is it now just a case that there's just a single SPFL standard (i.e. if it's good enough for League 2 then it's good enough for the Premiership)? In that case, Dudgeon Park would be suitable for the Premiership if it just gets some new floodlights??? Then again, if Central Park is deemed good enough to handle the Sevco, Hibs and Hearts fans this season then where's the issue with everyone else I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 As far as I'm aware, the standards are the same for the Premiership as they are for the Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 To that level? Ooooft! Surely all the terracing would be closed or is it now just a case that there's just a single SPFL standard (i.e. if it's good enough for League 2 then it's good enough for the Premiership)? In that case, Dudgeon Park would be suitable for the Premiership if it just gets some new floodlights??? Then again, if Central Park is deemed good enough to handle the Sevco, Hibs and Hearts fans this season then where's the issue with everyone else I guess. Premiership and championship require the same standards, which IIRC is bronze license with silver floodlights, league 1 and 2 require entry license with bronze floodlights and HL/LL require entry licensing(I think HL request floodlights as well but I'm not sure, they may be forced to let go of that) I do think the new regulations are a little too lenient but that's how it stands. I know you were just using Brechin as an example but it's possible there may actually be a debate should you gain promotion , the pitch width may not be good enough, around the time licensing first came in cowden were another club with pitch width issues, they have had to widen the pitch this summer, it's possible brechin would need to do the same if promoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 If I was head of the SFA and Brora deliberately failed to upgrade their floodlites in an effort to avoid promotion I'd fine them the cost of the new floodlites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankies Alive Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Why would the SFA want to bankrupt a club by making them take a promotion they neither want nor can afford,its bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 If I was head of the SFA and Brora deliberately failed to upgrade their floodlites in an effort to avoid promotion I'd fine them the cost of the new floodlites. I disagree with this tbh. I don't necessarily believe that teams 'should be as big as they can be' if it would be unsustainable. Say for example Brora upgraded at a cost they were rather uncomfortable with, got to League 2 and were immediately relegated, struggling financially and therefore struggling to stay competitive within the Highland League. This might not apply to Brora directly but basically, a well run club shouldn't be forced to be crippled through success / overachieving as it is / precedent. Maybe I'm a bit biased enjoying my own club's level without getting a weekly beating off of the full-time boys and potentially having to spend lots on upgrading the Glebe for the unsustainable privilege. Either that or go professional with an average gate of 600-800 to be competitive and as 'big as we can be' - which would be ridiculous. Basically, we're as big as we can realistically can be without running into financial difficulty. I've seen similar debates on here where people have the opposite opinion and blast some clubs for having a lack of ambition of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Why would the SFA want to bankrupt a club by making them take a promotion they neither want nor can afford,its bizarre. They're not wanting to bankrupt them, but stop the carry on which is the bane of the Junior set up where "big fish in the wee pond" local businessmen spunk silly sums of money on trying to have the best non-league side money can buy whilst playing in grounds not fit for pigs to live in, & expecting the paying public to pay for it. If they can spend that sort of money on players - & in the case of Brora the amounts are alarming - they can spend money on having the proper infrastructure in place so if they win the league, they go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Why would the SFA want to bankrupt a club by making them take a promotion they neither want nor can afford,its bizarre. The point is the can afford it, they just like the big fish in small pond thing. It's anti-competitive. Should we have optional relegations too? Plenty of teams would struggle financially if relegated, why should it be forced on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 I disagree with this tbh. I don't necessarily believe that teams 'should be as big as they can be' if it would be unsustainable. Say for example Brora upgraded at a cost they were rather uncomfortable with, got to League 2 and were immediately relegated, struggling financially and therefore struggling to stay competitive within the Highland League. This might not apply to Brora directly but basically, a well run club shouldn't be forced to be crippled through success / overachieving as it is / precedent. Say for example Brora upgraded at a reasonable cost, got to League 2, drew Celtic or Rangers in the cup, finished in the play-off and went up while getting decent attendances for League 1/2 level... what then? Maybe I'm a bit biased enjoying my own club's level without getting a weekly beating off of the full-time boys and potentially having to spend lots on upgrading the Glebe for the unsustainable privilege. Either that or go professional with an average gate of 600-800 to be competitive and as 'big as we can be' - which would be ridiculous. Basically, we're as big as we can realistically can be without running into financial difficulty. I've seen similar debates on here where people have the opposite opinion and blast some clubs for having a lack of ambition of course. Why would Brechin ever need to go professional or upgrade Glebe Park unless you made the Premiership? With all due respect that's never going to happen precisely because you are financially responsible, you're potential is bottom Championship, no more. I'd be comfortable betting good money on Brechin never finishing above 5th in that league in the next 40 years. Some Highland/Lowland/Junior clubs clearly have the potential to play at a higher level than where they are now, many from much larger towns than Brechin, I don't understand why they are uncomfortable with the idea of seeing how far they can go. Infrastructure costs aside would Brora and the like really have to spend any more now to be competitive in League 2? I doubt it. I guess teams not wanting promotion to the SPFL suites a club like Brechin so your stance is not surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Playing at a higher level would surely cost a fair amount for Brora but the financial package is, or if not - should be -great enough to add money rather than lose it. The Highland League is hardly a local affair as it is. The only way the setup will be taken seriously is by removing the options to effectively decline promotion, kicking non-interested parties like the Juniors out of a mainstream Scottish Cup, clarifying the reshuffle when clubs are punted to the regional level and having a serious entry process that doesn't allow social clubs with no prior senior experience walk into the 5th tier, valid stadium criteria or not. Most of these can and probably will be ironed out over the next few years, and then we should have a fairly decent system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 As far as I'm aware, the standards are the same for the Premiership as they are for the Championship. Off the top of my head, I think there are some requirements on media and medical facilities which only apply to the Premiership, but for the most part it is the same for both. Purely on terms of capacity, Central Park is definitely Premiership compliant - you only need 500 covered seats and terracing is now allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bankies Alive Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Why should a club be made to go and play against other clubs that they have no interest in playing? If the people who go and watch Brora don't want to watch their team playing Annan,Berwick etc then why make them,its absurd! Clubs turn up every season in the lower reaches of the SPFL get their hand out of cash and chug along in front of embarrassingly low crowds. They have no chance of doing anything and so therefore no chance of creating any interest in them barring the odd cup tie! The solution isn't to push the non-league clubs into that set up but to move the rest of part time football towards regionalised non-league set ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 Why should a club be made to go and play against other clubs that they have no interest in playing? If the people who go and watch Brora don't want to watch their team playing Annan,Berwick etc then why make them,its absurd! Clubs turn up every season in the lower reaches of the SPFL get their hand out of cash and chug along in front of embarrassingly low crowds. They have no chance of doing anything and so therefore no chance of creating any interest in them barring the odd cup tie! The solution isn't to push the non-league clubs into that set up but to move the rest of part time football towards regionalised non-league set ups. You're saying that in bold in the year St Johnstone won their first major domestic trophy in their history, and last year St Mirren won their first League Cup, the year before that Kilmarnock won their first League Cup? As a piece of whataboutery, it's not very convincing. The point is to force clubs - not teams (the distinction is important) - into becoming the best they can be as centres of attraction to the sport both on and off the field, not simply having the best team money can buy & devil take the hindmost on the rest of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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