Highland League restructuring

[welshbairn]

The trouble is that then, if the juniors are all eventually brought into the pyramid, you'd basically have the top Northern juniors sitting a level higher than the other juniors who would, presumably, feed into the EOS/SOS Leagues.

 

Let the North sort out it's shit, and the South its. The situations are wholly different, and don't really affect each other.

[MacGafraidh]

Are the boundary lines the same with the North Juniors? (River Tay) As they are with the LFL/HFL split?

[HibeeJibee]

No, it's a haphazard line through Angus - Montrose Roselea and Stonehaven are the most southerly North Juniors.

[Cyclizine]

Are the boundary lines the same with the North Juniors? (River Tay) As they are with the LFL/HFL split?

 

The old Tayside district is part of the East Region, covering Angus, Perthshire and the City of Dundee. The North Region is pretty much just Aberdeenshire and Moray, with the Highlands currently having only one club - the North Caledonian League holding sway up here.

 

Interestingly, Montrose Roselea have switched Regions and will now play in the North Region.

[Cyclizine]

The trouble is that then, if the juniors are all eventually brought into the pyramid, you'd basically have the top Northern juniors sitting a level higher than the other juniors who would, presumably, feed into the EOS/SOS Leagues.

 

Given that the SJFA was planning on abandoning the North Region with their Superduperleague idea the other year, I suspect this would not be too much of an issue.

[MacGafraidh]

I think Bully and i were barking up the same tree that the City of Dundee East teams could get a jump on a level if they joined the North Juniors.

[FairWeatherFan]

If the Juniors were to slot into the pyramid i'm sure some version of the 3 Regional Superleagues could be slotted in to Tier 6.  The North taking on the bottom 2 from the Highland League. The West possibly taking on as many as 4 from the SoS. It's in the East where things would get rather difficult.

 

Underneath that you could bring back the older Junior regions. North Superleague = North & Tayside, West Superleague = Central & Ayrshire, East Superleague = Fife & East.

[stanley]

HL could quite simply connect-up with the North Juniors with their 14-team Superleague, and relegate bottom 2 HL clubs to rebalance as 2 divisions of 16.

 

It's pretty disappointing that the solution in the north is very simple but nothing at all has been done.  Hard to see how the mess in the south with the senior/junior divide can ever be fixed if the north isn't being touched.

 

I remain hopeful that something will eventually happen to link up the seniors/juniors (starting off with the north) although it could take years to change anything.  

[Jacksgranda]

The trouble is that then, if the juniors are all eventually brought into the pyramid, you'd basically have the top Northern juniors sitting a level higher than the other juniors who would, presumably, feed into the EOS/SOS Leagues.

 

That would be the other juniors problem. The highland pyramid, as has been said more than once, is quite easily sorted, should the will be there.It appears not to be, however.

[welshbairn]

That would be the other juniors problem. The highland pyramid, as has been said more than once, is quite easily sorted, should the will be there.It appears not to be, however.

 

The only problem with the 16/16 would be if the Super League team or teams due for promotion didn't have floodlights or HL level facilities. The facilities wouldn't be too important so long as they could cope with a few hundred spectators, but I don't see how they could manage without floodlights. There aren't enough Saturday afternoons for all the fixtures even if they kicked off early in the Winter.

[stanley]

The only problem with the 16/16 would be if the Super League team or teams due for promotion didn't have floodlights or HL level facilities. The facilities wouldn't be too important so long as they could cope with a few hundred spectators, but I don't see how they could manage without floodlights. There aren't enough Saturday afternoons for all the fixtures even if they kicked off early in the Winter.

 

They could simply make it so that you require a licence to be in the top division of the Highland League but the standards could be more relaxed in the lower division (like in the EoS/SoS currently).  You then need a licence to be promoted.  It would hopefully encourage clubs to work towards to a licence.  There are already 19 teams (Highland League+Banks O'Dee) with a licence so you'd at least have three teams in contention for promotion straight away.

 

I'd prefer a system where the highest placed eligible clubs would be promoted rather than clubs with no licences being denied promotion and there being no alternative clubs promoted.  Of course, you could set a limit so that teams have to finish in the top x number of places to be promoted.  Level nine of the English pyramid is a decent model with the highest place teams which applies for promotion (and meets the ground standards) is promoted as long as they finish in the top three.  In the case of the Highland League, you'd like to think there would be more than one promotion place as well.

[cmontheloknow]

Given that the SJFA was planning on abandoning the North Region with their Superduperleague idea the other year, I suspect this would not be too much of an issue.

 

"abandoning" is hyperbole. If the SJFA did create a national Junior League, with a prize money of a bag of chips and a sachet of tomato sauce, the clubs would as well play in the SPFL L2.

[craigkillie]

I posted about this in the Wasteland forum before it disappeared, but the recent demise of the East of Scotland League makes the actual logistics of forming a pyramid fairly easy if the Juniors and the non-league seniors are both willing to play ball and make a few small sacrifices.

 

They basically need to incorporate the East of Scotland, South of Scotland and North Caledonian Leagues as an extra division at the bottom of each of the three Junior structures, in the short term at least.  As a way of getting the senior teams on board, they would probably have to agree to slot in a few of the leading sides from the East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues a little bit higher up the pyramid (eg Leith and LTHV into the East Premier League and Threave and St Cuthberts into the West 1st Division).  Over a few seasons, everyone will naturally find their level anyway.

 

Promotion from the East Superleague is a little bit convoluted since the East Junior region straddles both the Highland and Lowland catchment areas.  It shouldn't be a big deal to just promote teams from the East to the relevant league and make suitable adjustments.  Eventually, we might see a move to a three division system at Level 5 to avoid this.

 

The bottom divisions would have to open themselves up in the long-term to any interested amateur or welfare teams, but that wouldn't have to be immediate.

 

In the longer term, there might be a case for restructuring each of the Junior systems.  In the North, they might want to merge back into two divisions at Level 7.  In the East, they might also move to 2 divisions at Level 7 and relegate some teams to Level 8.  In the West, they might expand the top two divisions and then tidy things up into 2 or 3 divisions at Level 7.

 

 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

I posted about this in the Wasteland forum before it disappeared, but the recent demise of the East of Scotland League makes the actual logistics of forming a pyramid fairly easy if the Juniors and the non-league seniors are both willing to play ball and make a few small sacrifices.

 

They basically need to incorporate the East of Scotland, South of Scotland and North Caledonian Leagues as an extra division at the bottom of each of the three Junior structures, in the short term at least.  As a way of getting the senior teams on board, they would probably have to agree to slot in a few of the leading sides from the East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues a little bit higher up the pyramid (eg Leith and LTHV into the East Premier League and Threave and St Cuthberts into the West 1st Division).  Over a few seasons, everyone will naturally find their level anyway.

 

Promotion from the East Superleague is a little bit convoluted since the East Junior region straddles both the Highland and Lowland catchment areas.  It shouldn't be a big deal to just promote teams from the East to the relevant league and make suitable adjustments.  Eventually, we might see a move to a three division system at Level 5 to avoid this.

 

The bottom divisions would have to open themselves up in the long-term to any interested amateur or welfare teams, but that wouldn't have to be immediate.

 

In the longer term, there might be a case for restructuring each of the Junior systems.  In the North, they might want to merge back into two divisions at Level 7.  In the East, they might also move to 2 divisions at Level 7 and relegate some teams to Level 8.  In the West, they might expand the top two divisions and then tidy things up into 2 or 3 divisions at Level 7.

 

 

 

 

That's quite smart. It is getting to the point of minimum fuss to achieve a decent structure. Just need to get everyone in the same room to hammer it out.

[lionel hutz]

I posted about this in the Wasteland forum before it disappeared, but the recent demise of the East of Scotland League makes the actual logistics of forming a pyramid fairly easy if the Juniors and the non-league seniors are both willing to play ball and make a few small sacrifices.

 

They basically need to incorporate the East of Scotland, South of Scotland and North Caledonian Leagues as an extra division at the bottom of each of the three Junior structures, in the short term at least.  As a way of getting the senior teams on board, they would probably have to agree to slot in a few of the leading sides from the East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues a little bit higher up the pyramid (eg Leith and LTHV into the East Premier League and Threave and St Cuthberts into the West 1st Division).  Over a few seasons, everyone will naturally find their level anyway.

 

Promotion from the East Superleague is a little bit convoluted since the East Junior region straddles both the Highland and Lowland catchment areas.  It shouldn't be a big deal to just promote teams from the East to the relevant league and make suitable adjustments.  Eventually, we might see a move to a three division system at Level 5 to avoid this.

 

The bottom divisions would have to open themselves up in the long-term to any interested amateur or welfare teams, but that wouldn't have to be immediate.

 

In the longer term, there might be a case for restructuring each of the Junior systems.  In the North, they might want to merge back into two divisions at Level 7.  In the East, they might also move to 2 divisions at Level 7 and relegate some teams to Level 8.  In the West, they might expand the top two divisions and then tidy things up into 2 or 3 divisions at Level 7.

 

 

 

 

A good idea, infact one of the best ideas I've seen on here, one problem I could see is that Burntisland, Duns and Edusport wouldn't want to take a two or three tier relegation from tier 6 to tier 8 or 9.

And a three regioned tier 5 would probably be fairer. There is currently 85 "highland" non-league clubs (when Tayport and Newburgh are counted) and 142 "lowland clubs" playing in either the Seniors or Juniors.

EDIT: I forgot there was 8 NCL clubs instead of 6

[craigkillie]

The likes of Burntisland and Duns are, realistically, not tier 6 level sides.  They have little prospect of ever being promoted to the Lowland League under the current system, so the change shouldn't have any actual noticeable impact on them.

 

A three regioned tier 5 might be better in the long-term, but the changes outlined above could basically be implemented next season with the minimum of fuss.

[Burnie_man]

You will never get Junior clubs to agree to sit below the LL in such a structure, there's no point wasting energy even discussing it.

[FairWeatherFan]

Right now there isn't automatic promotion between the Lowland & EoS/SoS. The same could still apply here, in which case there isn't really anything for the Junior Superleagues to complain about.

 

What it does though is remove the fears that some Junior clubs have in joining the Lowland. If they were to get relegated from the LL you won't have to start at the very bottom tier of your region.

[lionel hutz]

The likes of Burntisland and Duns are, realistically, not tier 6 level sides.  They have little prospect of ever being promoted to the Lowland League under the current system, so the change shouldn't have any actual noticeable impact on them.

 

A three regioned tier 5 might be better in the long-term, but the changes outlined above could basically be implemented next season with the minimum of fuss.

I suppose.

I know that for the North Superleague there is ground criteria (idk what it is) that could be used as a tier 6 requirement. 

 

 

You will never get Junior clubs to agree to sit below the LL in such a structure, there's no point wasting energy even discussing it.

Well, if anything, this gives the Junior structure a promotion from where they are now. The ER+WR Superleagues are effectively tier 7  (yes i know theres no promotion/relegation). Have the SFA even proposed any specific format to the Juniors regarding a pyramid or has it just been very vague? There could be incentives to agree to this, like automatic Scottish Cup qualification to tier 6 sides, scrapping the £2k license fee, etc.

And isn't the whole point of pyramid finding a suitable level to play at? So if Junior Clubs are so much better than LL clubs, then they'll rise to tier 5 rapidly?

 

[craigkillie]

You will never get Junior clubs to agree to sit below the LL in such a structure, there's no point wasting energy even discussing it.

 

Surely they could either be incentivised (more Scottish Cup entry, extra £££) or have their arm twisted (referee appointments, player registrations) to make it happen.

 

For the majority of Junior clubs, very little would change.  They'd still be playing in the same structure and they'd still have the Junior Cup to play in, and the new teams added would, on the whole, pose no threat at all to them.  Promotion to Level 5 should be optional IMO, but even if it was "compulsory" as it is now, then most clubs would be able to avoid via licensing.

 

If the clubs did decide to go for it and accept promotion, then the Lowland League would probably be 90% Junior clubs within a decade.

 

I appreciate that these nuanced discussions wouldn't necessarily hold much water with Junior committees, but I reckon we're in a better position to pull things together than we were 5 years ago.  It's time for the SFA to get back involved in arbitration of this stuff, but someone needs to make the first step.