Highland League restructuring

[Enigma]

Why should a club be made to go and play against other clubs that they have no interest in playing?

If the people who go and watch Brora don't want to watch their team playing Annan,Berwick etc then why make them,its absurd!

Clubs turn up every season in the lower reaches of the SPFL get their hand out of cash and chug along in front of embarrassingly low crowds.

They have no chance of doing anything and so therefore no chance of creating any interest in them barring the odd cup tie!

The solution isn't to push the non-league clubs into that set up but to move the rest of part time football towards regionalised non-league set ups.

If Brora don't want promotion they're welcome to resign from the Highland League and join some league outwith the pyramid I'm sure.

Edit: I should add I do believe there is a place for voluntary promotion, it seems to be the done thing down in the lower reaches of more establish pyramid systems, I don't believe in Scotland this should be tier 4 to 5 but I think the authorities are setting it up for 5 to 6 and below. Tier 5 should comprise of teams that aspire to league entry, and I believe it will, if Brora want to be a big fish in a wee pond they can join the Northern Caledonian or something and watch the others make a go it. I guarantee the opening up of tier 4 to promotion from below will in the next 10 to 15 years produce a real success story.

[Cyclizine]

Playing at a higher level would surely cost a fair amount for Brora but the financial package is, or if not - should be -great enough to add money rather than lose it. The Highland League is hardly a local affair as it is.

The only way the setup will be taken seriously is by removing the options to effectively decline promotion, kicking non-interested parties like the Juniors out of a mainstream Scottish Cup, clarifying the reshuffle when clubs are punted to the regional level and having a serious entry process that doesn't allow social clubs with no prior senior experience walk into the 5th tier, valid stadium criteria or not.

Most of these can and probably will be ironed out over the next few years, and then we should have a fairly decent system.

Abolition of the senior/junior/amateur/welfare divide would come under there for me as well, but I think you're spot on there.

[Hedgecutter]

Say for example Brora upgraded at a reasonable cost, got to League 2, drew Celtic or Rangers in the cup, finished in the play-off and went up while getting decent attendances for League 1/2 level... what then?

Why would Brechin ever need to go professional or upgrade Glebe Park unless you made the Premiership? With all due respect that's never going to happen precisely because you are financially responsible, you're potential is bottom Championship, no more. I'd be comfortable betting good money on Brechin never finishing above 5th in that league in the next 40 years. Some Highland/Lowland/Junior clubs clearly have the potential to play at a higher level than where they are now, many from much larger towns than Brechin, I don't understand why they are uncomfortable with the idea of seeing how far they can go. Infrastructure costs aside would Brora and the like really have to spend any more now to be competitive in League 2? I doubt it. I guess teams not wanting promotion to the SPFL suites a club like Brechin so your stance is not surprising.

My point is more that even if Brora can afford it just now, forcing them to spend just now would create a precedent which would then have to applied to a future HL winner which may not be able to afford upgrades without taking up loans or whatever.

Unless you're specifically suggesting that the authorities look through the books and then vote on whether they should be forced to or not? (even if that was set aside for a youth academy or sonething)

As for Brechin (and I know it's not a directly applicable comparison at this particular moment), that could feasibly have happened had the stadia rules been made stricter rather than relaxed. Plus as you say, bottom of the Championship is the best we can be but to 'have ambition' to stay there then we would realistically have to go full-time. Thought I saw something earlier saying Championship required silver award whereas Leagues 1/2 only needed bronze anyway so a difference may actually exist. For all I know we might not have silver due to the 'illegally' narrow pitch SO IN A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION WHERE BRECHIN DIDN'T meet the Championship requirement and they won League 1, what would you expect to happen? Should they also be forced to upgrade the facilities?

I ask all this as I get the feeling that people think that there should be one set of rules for the SPFL and another for the HL even though they're now part of the same system which relies on fair and consistent relegations / promotions to make it work.

[Bankies Alive]

You're saying that in bold in the year St Johnstone won their first major domestic trophy in their history, and last year St Mirren won their first League Cup, the year before that Kilmarnock won their first League Cup? As a piece of whataboutery, it's not very convincing.

The point is to force clubs - not teams (the distinction is important) - into becoming the best they can be as centres of attraction to the sport both on and off the field, not simply having the best team money can buy & devil take the hindmost on the rest of it.

The clubs you mentioned aren't the ones I was referring to and I think you know that!

I`m talking about the part time clubs that inhabit the bottom 2 divisions.

Albion Rovers etc would be better off playing Pollok,Talbot and ourselves than Elgin City,Annan and the like.

The ground criteria for clubs in the lower reaches of the SPFL is a nonsense as well,what type of facility do you really need to accommodate a "crowd" of 250?

[Enigma]

My point is more that even if Brora can afford it just now, forcing them to spend just now would create a precedent which would then have to applied to a future HL winner which may not be able to afford upgrades without taking up loans or whatever.

Unless you're specifically suggesting that the authorities look through the books and then vote on whether they should be forced to or not? (even if that was set aside for a youth academy or sonething)

As for Brechin (and I know it's not a directly applicable comparison at this particular moment), that could feasibly have happened had the stadia rules been made stricter rather than relaxed. Plus as you say, bottom of the Championship is the best we can be but to 'have ambition' to stay there then we would realistically have to go full-time. Thought I saw something earlier saying Championship required silver award whereas Leagues 1/2 only needed bronze anyway so a difference may actually exist. For all I know we might not have silver due to the 'illegally' narrow pitch SO IN A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION WHERE BRECHIN DIDN'T meet the Championship requirement and they won League 1, what would you expect to happen? Should they also be forced to upgrade the facilities?

I don't see the issue in having a certain benchmark in facilities for league entry. Some clubs operating on very meagre budgets haven't found much difficulty in achieving licencing. I don't think any club should be forced to upgrade facilities. I do think having the means to upgrade but deliberately failing to do so in order to avoid promotion should be a fineable offence. We need to create a situation where, for non-league teams, upgrading your facilities and achieving promotion is more desirable than playing a bunch of overplayed footballers on public park type affairs. I advocate the carrot and the stick being used, clubs need incentives and those who want to be the 'little emperor' of their domain with small-time sugar daddies need a boot up the arse.

As for your hypothetical situation.. if my mum hypothetically had a cock and balls she'd be my dad etc. There's no point wasting my time on your hypothetical unless you can prove to me your club would be denied promotion if it failed to upgrade Glebe Park.

[vikingTON]

The clubs you mentioned aren't the ones I was referring to and I think you know that!

I`m talking about the part time clubs that inhabit the bottom 2 divisions.

Albion Rovers etc would be better off playing Pollok,Talbot and ourselves than Elgin City,Annan and the like.

...If you conveniently ignore the loss of league prize money, League Cup ties and money, sponsorship, hospitality and overall club profile that comes with playing in a regional division. But these actually exist, and there has been absolutely zero demand by such clubs for regionalisation.

So you'll either have to slither into the pyramid at the bottom with your tails between your legs, or remain an irrelevance.

[Bankies Alive]

...If you conveniently ignore the loss of league prize money, League Cup ties and money, sponsorship, hospitality and overall club profile that comes with playing in a regional division. But these actually exist, and there has been absolutely zero demand by such clubs for regionalisation.

So you'll either have to slither into the pyramid at the bottom with your tails between your legs, or remain an irrelevance.

I agree with you! But the point I`m making is that the prize money and status afforded to the bottom 2 divisions isn't right.

The money should be shared between the full time pro clubs not given to clubs with 200 fans.

These clubs should be moved towards what they actually are along with the rest of the part time football clubs in the country.

Part time football is still classed as amateur in the likes of Germany.If its not your full time job then you`re not a professional.

How many fans go to watch away matches in Div2 ? How many more would go if the games were more localised and cheaper to get into?

Like I said its all the wrong way around,the SFA shouldn't be forcing clubs up the way they should be putting a stop to artificially keeping part time clubs at a level they shouldn't be at!

[Cyclizine]

Like I said its all the wrong way around,the SFA shouldn't be forcing clubs up the way they should be putting a stop to artificially keeping part time clubs at a level they shouldn't be at!

But this is the whole point - if clubs are not sustainable, they go down and another club goes up. If they're not sustainable then they go down again and someone else comes up - it's all about finding a level. What is unacceptable is 'big fish' clubs treading water, denying other clubs the opportunity to progress - this is what Brora seem to want, it's all having your cake and eating it. Part of playing in league, which, let's remember, voted to accept the SFA's proposals is that you follow both the rules and spirit of the rules.

[Bankies Alive]

Very few if any of the clubs in Div 1 or Div 2 are sustainable at the level they`re at without League hand outs from up above though!

The SPFL should be for Full Time pro clubs.

[Hedgecutter]

Further regionalisation for an area the size of Scotland is just daft imo. The only exception is the currently regionalised Petrofac cup for midweek games - and even then East Fife fans were worrying about drawing Brora away.

Which then has me realise... if Dudgeon Park is acceptable for the Petrofac Cup then why not the affiliated League 2?

[Bankies Alive]

Further regionalisation for an area the size of Scotland is just daft imo. The only exception is the currently regionalised Petrofac cup for midweek games - and even then East Fife fans were worrying about drawing Brora away.

Which then has me realise... if Dudgeon Park is acceptable for the Petrofac Cup then why not the affiliated League 2?

Without League hand outs from above the clubs in Div1 or Div2 couldn't afford to play in a national set up though.

The cost of travel would see to that.

Its all about keeping clubs at an artificial level.

[Hedgecutter]

Without League hand outs from above the clubs in Div1 or Div2 couldn't afford to play in a national set up though.

The cost of travel would see to that.

Its all about keeping clubs at an artificial level.

Any cuts would be in the wage budget, not a coach the likes of which our supporters club can afford every fortnight.

Seriously, do you know the distances which the likes of Cove, Fort William & Wick manage to cover perfectly fine even in the HL???

[Bankies Alive]

Any cuts would be in the wage budget, not a coach the likes of which our supporters club can afford every fortnight.

Seriously, do you know the distances which the likes of Cove, Fort William & Wick manage to cover perfectly fine even in the HL???

I`m betting it not as much as going to Annan and Berwick!

[parsforlife]

My point is more that even if Brora can afford it just now, forcing them to spend just now would create a precedent which would then have to applied to a future HL winner which may not be able to afford upgrades without taking up loans or whatever.

Unless you're specifically suggesting that the authorities look through the books and then vote on whether they should be forced to or not? (even if that was set aside for a youth academy or sonething)

As for Brechin (and I know it's not a directly applicable comparison at this particular moment), that could feasibly have happened had the stadia rules been made stricter rather than relaxed. Plus as you say, bottom of the Championship is the best we can be but to 'have ambition' to stay there then we would realistically have to go full-time. Thought I saw something earlier saying Championship required silver award whereas Leagues 1/2 only needed bronze anyway so a difference may actually exist. For all I know we might not have silver due to the 'illegally' narrow pitch SO IN A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION WHERE BRECHIN DIDN'T meet the Championship requirement and they won League 1, what would you expect to happen? Should they also be forced to upgrade the facilities?

I ask all this as I get the feeling that people think that there should be one set of rules for the SPFL and another for the HL even though they're now part of the same system which relies on fair and consistent relegations / promotions to make it work.

I think promotions should be forced as it stands, the jumps between leagues for getting the required standard should be covered by increased revenue, for example between tier 5 and L2 it's only floodlights that's the difference, now i'm not 100% sure on costs but IIRC the highest figuire I've seen is 80k, starting from scratch. Even if a club only stays in league 2 IIRC they should bring over £100k from prize money/parachute payments , I'll need to check my info on that but when the costs of upgrading are easily enough recovered then yes clubs should be forced to be promoted.

Without League hand outs from above the clubs in Div1 or Div2 couldn't afford to play in a national set up though.

The cost of travel would see to that.

Its all about keeping clubs at an artificial level.

Even if we accept your idea that playing at a national level costs clubs loads of money(I'd like to see your sums here tbh,I'm doubtful) I'm not sure what you mean by artificial level, why would the league do this? Do think the clubs sit around and say to each other "yes I know regionisation makes sense but that would make us look like diddy clubs so we won't bother"

Tbh rants about prize money for part-time clubs just look a bit jealous, it's not fair they're diddy clubs like us but they get money we don't. Well guess what, they get it because they are higher profile.

On a separate note, you moaned at the ground requirments, do you actually know what they are? Because I find it highly doubtful you're capable of finding anything unreasonable. Give it a shot tho I'd be interested to see what you can find.

[Hedgecutter]

I`m betting it not as much as going to Annan and Berwick!

For the vast majority of part time SPFL sides, the cost around Scotland for the season, including even Annan and Berwick is less than Wick & Fort William have to travel (at present).

In the current extreme, Elgin to Annan is only an extra 50 miles on Wick to Cove anyway. Real 'break the bank' stuff.

[Hedgecutter]

I think promotions should be forced as it stands, the jumps between leagues for getting the required standard should be covered by increased revenue, for example between tier 5 and L2 it's only floodlights that's the difference, now i'm not 100% sure on costs but IIRC the highest figuire I've seen is 80k, starting from scratch. Even if a club only stays in league 2 IIRC they should bring over £100k from prize money/parachute payments , I'll need to check my info on that but when the costs of upgrading are easily enough recovered then yes clubs should be forced to be promoted.

If it is indeed the case that the EXTRA money they'd get as a direct result of promotion would definitely cover the expense of upgrades, then in that case I think a forced upgrade and promotion would be the best option for everybody overall. Grants might be required though as Brora wouldn't get parachute payments until the end of the season I guess?

Any issue I have would concern over would involve clubs being forced to spend money they don't have (or had already committed to other facilities).

[parsforlife]

If it is indeed the case that the EXTRA money they'd get as a direct result of promotion would definitely cover the expense of upgrades, then in that case I think a forced upgrade and promotion would be the best option for everybody overall. Grants might be required though as Brora wouldn't get parachute payments until the end of the season I guess?

Any issue I have would concern over would involve clubs being forced to spend money they don't have (or had already committed to other facilities).

Well yes it's possible the spfl could forward funds for upgrades, not wholly unreasonable

[Bankies Alive]

Even if we accept your idea that playing at a national level costs clubs loads of money(I'd like to see your sums here tbh,I'm doubtful) I'm not sure what you mean by artificial level, why would the league do this? Do think the clubs sit around and say to each other "yes I know regionisation makes sense but that would make us look like diddy clubs so we won't bother"

Spot on!

[Bankies Alive]

For the vast majority of part time SPFL sides, the cost around Scotland for the season, including even Annan and Berwick is less than Wick & Fort William have to travel (at present).

In the current extreme, Elgin to Annan is only an extra 50 miles on Wick to Cove anyway. Real 'break the bank' stuff.

The HL clubs only play each other twice a season though.

What about Wick to Annan TWICE a season and if midweek then compensation for players to take the day off of work?

There`s no way part time clubs with crowds of only a couple of hundred could afford to play at that level without hand outs.

As someone who`s seen it from both sides over the years it does seem wrong that a select few part time clubs get protected from the real world.Its not jealousy its just the way it is but it does need to change.

[Enigma]

The problem of course with a full time only set up (and I presume you'd go for a 10-10 set up, right? We have 3 part timers in the Championship and 2 in League 1 if my calculations are right and you wont want a league of 11 or will you force a team to go full time?) is you create a massive gap between the bottom SPFL teams and the top regional teams. I think there is scope for a 12-12 system with an 18 team national "conference" league then regional leagues below. I'd only do this in a full pyramid. The "conference" would probably be strong enough to support a full time team relegated from above for a season or two and not be to strong as to dissuade teams from the regional leagues from wanting promotion to it. It act as a parachute from above and a booster from below. Fluid relegation could help this, keep the current play system in place from Championship to League 1 and from the "conference" have 3 automatic relegation spots to the three North,East, and West regions and a play off for the runners up in those leagues and the 15th placed team.