LongTimeLurker Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Which should tell you what he was really afraid of. The SNP could still have organized a consultative rather than a legally binding referendum even without Cameron's agreement and the legislation passed through Westminster. It clearly suited the agendas (please spare me any Latin pedantry) of both Cameron and Salmond to hold the two-option referendum instead. Cameron because he's supremely confident he'll get the No victory that he wants, and Salmond with a view to setting a useful precedent for the future. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Brian Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Which should tell you what he was really afraid of. The SNP could still have organized a consultative rather than a legally binding referendum even without Cameron's agreement and the legislation passed through Westminster. It clearly suited the agendas (please spare me any Latin pedantry) of both Cameron and Salmond to hold the two-option referendum instead. Cameron because he's supremely confident he'll get the No victory that he wants, and Salmond with a view to setting a useful precedent for the future. I agree with all of that. IMO what it showed was Cameron's unwillingness to transfer any more power to Holyrood. It may work for him. We shall see. Whatever it's a huge gamble for him 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 A straightforward yes or no is the fairest referendum. politicians and the media are making it complicated enough without adding any potential confusion to such a huge vote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaldo Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 A straightforward yes or no is the fairest referendum. politicians and the media are making it complicated enough without adding any potential confusion to such a huge vote. I agree. I didn't want Devo-Max for the reason I'm Brian already pointed out in that full independence would have been horsed in the referendum if it had been included. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlon Brando Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I'm voting yes because it's in the best interests of Scotland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 As I said perhaps I misunderstood but the SNP wanted the third option on the paper which I understood to be Devo Max They were internally divided. Salmond wanted a 2nd question, and it was part of their 2007 proposals, and suggested as a possibility in the post-2011 proposals. Sturgeon and Swinney (an unusual alliance within the SNP) wanted a straight question. The Scottish Government's Cabinet was divided so they didn't push hard for it with Cameron, who wanted a straight question, in the negotiations to lead to the Edinburgh Agreement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burma Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 They were internally divided. Salmond wanted a 2nd question, and it was part of their 2007 proposals, and suggested as a possibility in the post-2011 proposals. Sturgeon and Swinney (an unusual alliance within the SNP) wanted a straight question. The Scottish Government's Cabinet was divided so they didn't push hard for it with Cameron, who wanted a straight question, in the negotiations to lead to the Edinburgh Agreement. Where are you getting this from? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Where are you getting this from? People I know who work at Holyrood and Westminster both in non-party governmental and party roles. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burma Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 People I know who work at Holyrood and Westminster both in non-party governmental and party roles. Ah. You made it up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) Ah. You made it up.I was told about this by several people independently. I cannot be specific about one of the individuals, given the nature of their (senior) involvement in the talks that lead to the s30 Order and that they informed me of this on condition of anonymity, but of the others, one is a (Yes sympathetic) staffer for Labour at Holyrood, one has given evidence to several Westminster committees on constitutional matters and has served as an adviser on legal matters to one particular committee dealing with matters of this nature and one was until circa 12 months ago a political adviser to one of the Scottish Ministers.Incidentally, Mike Russell was on Salmond's side in the split. I can't remember how the rest of the Cabinet split on it. Edited February 2, 2014 by Ad Lib 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broccoli Dog Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Ad Lib speaks the truth on this subject, the SNP was indeed split in two camps. one pushing for devo max as a stepping stone to independence, and one pushing for full autonomy right now. The latter camp won the fight, and we will see if the gamble paid off in 8 months. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) Ad Lib speaks the truth on this subject, the SNP was indeed split in two camps. one pushing for devo max as a stepping stone to independence, and one pushing for full autonomy right now. The latter camp won the fight, and we will see if the gamble paid off in 8 months. Indeed he does, Salmond was not confident of victory in a straight yes/no referendum, I think wee Nicola was really confident of victory in a straight yes/no referendum,thankfully the wee yin won the day. Edited February 2, 2014 by ayrmad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Of course I speak the truth. It's what I do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Of course I speak the truth. It's what I do. The truth and you are strangers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I'm not with you here HB. Alex Salmond(SNP) proposed a third option on the ballot paper. That is the only point I have made. Again, you saying this isn't evidence. What evidence do you have that Alex Salmond proposed a third option on the ballot paper? This is revisionist drivel in my view. He absolutely should have done this, but I've never seen a shred of proof that he did. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Indeed he does, Salmond was not confident of victory in a straight yes/no referendum, I think wee Nicola was really confident of victory in a straight yes/no referendum,thankfully the wee yin won the day. Why? It was rank stupidity to do this. Devo Max would have won easily and would have been a clear stepping stone to overall independence. The SNP could have used the interim period following the DM "Yes" vote to prepare the ground in say 8-10 years time for a Yes/No vote, which would have been new. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Why? It was rank stupidity to do this. Devo Max would have won easily and would have been a clear stepping stone to overall independence. The SNP could have used the interim period following the DM "Yes" vote to prepare the ground in say 8-10 years time for a Yes/No vote, which would have been new. It's only sheer stupidity if YES get skelped,it's too close to call as far as I'm concerned. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 It's only sheer stupidity if YES get skelped,it's too close to call as far as I'm concerned. Well, actually no. It doesn't really matter if they get "skelped" or lose by a percent. The end result is still rejection of Independence, and leaves the SNP with no obvious roadmap. DM would have given a clear roadmap. No one believes Yes will win this time - Scotland just isn't ready for Independence yet. A resounding DM vote, followed by Holyrood taking on more and more responsibility and you'd have seen, provided the SNP didn't implode, another referendum in a decade or so. Now they face losing this one, no clear roadmap to another one and with Salmond unlikely to stay leader too much longer. If Ad Lib is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, it would explain a lot. I was always totally bemused by Salmond not going for a 3 option referendum - I didn't see why such a smart politician would enter a referendum he couldn't win. But if the scenario above is true, that does make sense. Given that Sturgeon is a fool. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davi3j Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Again, you saying this isn't evidence. What evidence do you have that Alex Salmond proposed a third option on the ballot paper? This is revisionist drivel in my view. He absolutely should have done this, but I've never seen a shred of proof that he did. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/first-minister-alex-salmond-demands-1116605 http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/salmond-in-secret-push-to-obtain-a-devo-max-option.18556202 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryfield Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Best of luck guys...but Brussels know best. Gaun the naws............ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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