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I hope this ill feeling over the vote doesn't last long. Salmond links westminster to foodbanks yes voters lap it up and accuse anyone being against independence as supporting poverty. Salmond seems to have had a go at divide and rule but not managed the latter part, then we now have folk like confi and Frankie Boyle regarding anyone who disagrees with them as the scum of the earth.

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I hope this ill feeling over the vote doesn't last long. Salmond links indepensencs to foodbanks yes voters lap it up and accuse anyone being against independence as supporting poverty. Salmond seems to have had a go at divide and rule but not managed the latter part, then we now have folk like confi and Frankie Boyle regarding anyone who disagrees with them as the scum of the earth.

Like I said earlier, I will eventually forgive and move on, once the hurt stops.

But I won't forget. And I don't mean that in an intimidating, threatening manner.

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Before yesterday I had always voted for labour. But after the labour party's stance on independence I promise I will never vote labour again. We had a chance in a independent to bring about the true values of the Labour Party when it was founded but it rallied against it. I just don't get it. The bbc and the daily record have been a disgrace. I will never ever again vote labour in my entire life.

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Before yesterday I had always voted for labour. But after the labour party's stance on independence I promise I will never vote labour again. We had a chance in a independent to bring about the true values of the Labour Party when it was founded but it rallied against it. I just don't get it. The bbc and the daily record have been a disgrace. I will never ever again vote labour in my entire life.

This - it's Labour in name only since Blair infiltrated the party.

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I think, at the end of the day, the two choices come with consequences. For Yes, the opportunity of building a new Scotland would always come with the risks associated with establishing a new nation. For No, the chance to retain short to medium term stability will actually be at the cost of diminishing Scotland, and further skewing what laughably passes for UK democracy.

In a practical sense, I have no problem with folk voting for the option that would leave them better off financially, in all likliehood, I didn't. I also can't deny those who see themselves as British above all else, a perfectly valid viewpoint to take. Those who think though, that No is a path to all the power with none of the risks, should have their membership cards for the human race torn up.

In a practical sense, Number 10 was talking about merely an extension of existing powers. What was outlined during the campaign was the meanest of devolution settlements, a portion or all of income tax - but with a corresponding cut in the block grant by the same amount, leaving any notional Scottish government either running hard to stand still, not daring ever to cut it, and not wanting to cause a flight of capital out of Scotland by raising it without being able to offset that against other fiscal levers.

This in turn will be sold to the electorate alongside a resolution of the 'West Lothian question'. In other words the exclusion of Scottish MPs from English only matters. Yet any debate that affects public expenditure in the UK has a knock on effect to the size of the block grant graciously gifted Holyrood by Westminster. So any resolution to that consitutional quirk that freezes out scottish MPs could easily end up diluting what little influence Scotland has on the size of it's budget.

That is of course, predicated on getting this 'faster, safer' change (but not better change?) through a Westminster parliament that has no reason to fear Scottish consequences. What are we going to do, threaten to secede? It's also the case that in order to secure a 'faster' change there will be little consultation with 'civic Scotland' over the make up of this Devo-whatever. It'll be a change driven by Westminster spads, and passed through a parliament with no reason to fear a scottish backlash.

The Labour party may end up the big loser in this. Those areas that did go Yes last night happen to be their heartlands, has their miserabalist and negative campaign done lasting damage amongst their core support? I know certainly on a personal level that my utter contempt for the former party of the people has grown to the point where I will never vote for the fuckers again, under any circumstances (and thus they join the Tories on that list). Doubt they'll miss me, but if that sentiment is wide enough they may have done some lasting damage.

I've always believed that politics has the ability to transform people's lives for the better. Granted, this is more of a theoretical proposition than based on any practical observation of the effect. Cynicism is easy, it allows you to distance yourself from the politicians who you see as troughing b*****ds while simultaneously absolving yourself of the responsibility for change. It means they can do what the f**k they like while not giving a crap about actually trying to improve the lot of those they technically are meant to serve. So that's no good. Independence was a once only put up or shut up event. In the event we elected to shut up,as it were. That's democracy. I don't know how I'm going to not get cynical, but I'm going to try, because whoever wins next year, it's going to be a variation on a right wing rent-a-suit trying to protect corporate interests, and that cannot be allowed to continue. I'm supposed to be British now? Fine, let's change what it means to be that.

Mark Renton was right, it IS shite being Scottish, We are the Hibs of the world, a bunch of born fucking losers, 'wha's like us' - nae c**t, fortunately. So what, let's take that and throw it back at Westminster, they are stuck with us now. The worst thing we can do is shrink back into ourselves.

Sums up perfectly for me, and in a way I couldn't put it across, in what has been a tragic week for me on a personal(family) level. Thanks for that post.
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I think, at the end of the day, the two choices come with consequences. For Yes, the opportunity of building a new Scotland would always come with the risks associated with establishing a new nation. For No, the chance to retain short to medium term stability will actually be at the cost of diminishing Scotland, and further skewing what laughably passes for UK democracy.

In a practical sense, I have no problem with folk voting for the option that would leave them better off financially, in all likliehood, I didn't. I also can't deny those who see themselves as British above all else, a perfectly valid viewpoint to take. Those who think though, that No is a path to all the power with none of the risks, should have their membership cards for the human race torn up.

In a practical sense, Number 10 was talking about merely an extension of existing powers. What was outlined during the campaign was the meanest of devolution settlements, a portion or all of income tax - but with a corresponding cut in the block grant by the same amount, leaving any notional Scottish government either running hard to stand still, not daring ever to cut it, and not wanting to cause a flight of capital out of Scotland by raising it without being able to offset that against other fiscal levers.

This in turn will be sold to the electorate alongside a resolution of the 'West Lothian question'. In other words the exclusion of Scottish MPs from English only matters. Yet any debate that affects public expenditure in the UK has a knock on effect to the size of the block grant graciously gifted Holyrood by Westminster. So any resolution to that consitutional quirk that freezes out scottish MPs could easily end up diluting what little influence Scotland has on the size of it's budget.

That is of course, predicated on getting this 'faster, safer' change (but not better change?) through a Westminster parliament that has no reason to fear Scottish consequences. What are we going to do, threaten to secede? It's also the case that in order to secure a 'faster' change there will be little consultation with 'civic Scotland' over the make up of this Devo-whatever. It'll be a change driven by Westminster spads, and passed through a parliament with no reason to fear a scottish backlash.

The Labour party may end up the big loser in this. Those areas that did go Yes last night happen to be their heartlands, has their miserabalist and negative campaign done lasting damage amongst their core support? I know certainly on a personal level that my utter contempt for the former party of the people has grown to the point where I will never vote for the fuckers again, under any circumstances (and thus they join the Tories on that list). Doubt they'll miss me, but if that sentiment is wide enough they may have done some lasting damage.

I've always believed that politics has the ability to transform people's lives for the better. Granted, this is more of a theoretical proposition than based on any practical observation of the effect. Cynicism is easy, it allows you to distance yourself from the politicians who you see as troughing b*****ds while simultaneously absolving yourself of the responsibility for change. It means they can do what the f**k they like while not giving a crap about actually trying to improve the lot of those they technically are meant to serve. So that's no good. Independence was a once only put up or shut up event. In the event we elected to shut up,as it were. That's democracy. I don't know how I'm going to not get cynical, but I'm going to try, because whoever wins next year, it's going to be a variation on a right wing rent-a-suit trying to protect corporate interests, and that cannot be allowed to continue. I'm supposed to be British now? Fine, let's change what it means to be that.

Mark Renton was right, it IS shite being Scottish, We are the Hibs of the world, a bunch of born fucking losers, 'wha's like us' - nae c**t, fortunately. So what, let's take that and throw it back at Westminster, they are stuck with us now. The worst thing we can do is shrink back into ourselves.

Brilliant post, sums up my feelings in a less bitter way than I would be able to manage.

The Labour party will hopefully die a death of a thousand cuts now, what they have become disgusts me.

Here comes the bitterness... I will never vote Labour again, and will vote Tory at every general and SNP at every SG election from this day until the day I die, doing all that I can to stop Labour every getting into power again.

I hold no grudges with those who voted no, I will never agree with self interest over the greater good but that's their prerogative and it was a clear majority so be it.

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The 'No' Campaign was terrible. I can't understand people blaming the bbc or any other company. If people did not want to vote 'Yes' after listening to what 'No' had to say then you can only conclude that they do not want an independent Scotland, have never wanted an independent Scotland and will never want one.

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Anybody want to volunteer to collate all the anecdotes on here about persuading people to change their minds to and the actual votes for "Yes"?

The desperation on show here has been hard to read for a long time.

Yesterday was brutal. I think the nadir was the speculation around the "National Collective" tweet of a sensational rumour.

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The desperation on show here has been hard to read for a long time.

Yesterday was brutal. I think the nadir was the speculation around the "National Collective" tweet of a sensational rumour.

I think your nadir was your use of the word "nadir".

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Well I'm disappointed it's a no.

No voters have voted out of fear and uncertainty, voted to let the Westminster politicians keep their noses in the cash trough and voted for Jim Murphy to keep his second tax payer funded London flat.

I never knew there were so many shitebags in Scotland.

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