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Scottish Independence

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I don't believe the default terms of membership of the EU are especially favourable or unfavourable to Scotland. They are, however, considerably less favourable than those the UK enjoys under the status quo.

I'm not "making a huge deal" out of it. I'm asking Yes supporters to be honest about it and to make the intelligent case that explains the overall benefits of independence notwithstanding any substantive changes that take place to our membership terms of international bodies.

Guffawing "we're already in the EU", "we'll be in the EU", and "we won't get kicked out of the EU" are lazy responses and don't make our best case, nor does it answer the No side's argument about the EU at its highest.

That and the SNP have a record of shameless lying on this issue and I believe Pie and Bovril should afford as much scrutiny to SNP lies as lies from other parties. The SNP are not held to account, comparatively speaking on here, unless people like me and H_B point these things out indefinitely until supposedly sane people on the Yes side just accept the very modest claims underpinned by the evidence of international law and precedent about what independence, institutionally, actually means, and therefore the political challenges it presents.

Again this word "enjoys". So I'll ask you the same questions I asked HB and Reynard (while I'm not impressed with his answer at least he bothered to type a response). Why is there a political party campaigning to leave the EU? Why is a referendum on taking the UK out of the EU a distinct possibility? Why do a lot of people south of the border want to leave? These terms don't seem to be that enjoyable, do they?

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I'm not "making a huge deal" out of it.

:: splutter ::

It is pretty much all you and your fellow Unionist law squad have talked about for about 8 months now.

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:: splutter ::

It is pretty much all you and your fellow Unionist law squad have talked about for about 8 months now.

Culminating in an obsession with the subject to the point of a) threatening to take the thread "hostage" - not sure how that even works lol. And b) threatening to "wreck it" just because he was proven wrong. Edited by Burma

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What exactly are these default terms and will Scotland be in the EU whilst it negotiates them?

Those contained within the Treaties of the EU and ancillary instruments and enjoyed by, among others, all member-states who became member-states after the Maastricht Treaty was ratified. They exclude, among other things, a general exemption from committing (at least nominally) to join the Euro on meeting the convergence criteria, a general exemption from implementing the Schengen rules and becoming part of the Schengen Area, and a preferential rebate in relation to the EU budget. All of which the UK enjoys having achieved the same said opt-outs as a condition of its membership first of the EEC and latterly the EU.

I cannot say whether Scotland will be "in the EU" whilst it negotiates them. I do not know the future. If the negotiations begin in 2014, Scotland will be a territory contained by a member-state at that point and will, in that sense, be "in the EU". I can make no guarantees as to whether that status will prevail, nor can the SNP guarantee that come their preferred independence day in 2016 those negotiations will have concluded and the conditions pertinent to them unanimously agreed and ratified by all 28 member-states. It's possible that it could be determined in that timeframe, but if it isn't, as a matter of EU law and in the absence of a contingency agreement (also unanimously agreed by member-states) or a postponement of independence, it is possible that Scotland, by virtue of its secession, would cease to be part of a member-state and therefore would no longer be in the EU.

Again this word "enjoys". So I'll ask you the same questions I asked HB and Reynard (while I'm not impressed with his answer at least he bothered to type a response). Why is there a political party campaigning to leave the EU? Why is a referendum on taking the UK out of the EU a distinct possibility? Why do a lot of people south of the border want to leave? These terms don't seem to be that enjoyable, do they?

*sigh* Would you prefer it if I say "has"?

UKIP are morons and a modest proportion of the politically interested are morons. There is not a significant demand that the UK leave the European Union. Whenever pollsters ask how much people actually care about issues, the EU is seldom even in the top 10. There is negligible probability of a referendum taking place on membership and even if it were held it would win in a landslide as all the political money would be thrown firmly in favour of staying in. The Westminster Party leaders know full well that leaving the European Union would be financial, diplomatic and political suicide.

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We demand proof, law-based proof.

I've already made a commitment to provide photographic evidence for the forum in the form of my ballot paper with the cross as and when the time comes.

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I've already made a commitment to provide photographic evidence for the forum in the form of my ballot paper with the cross as and when the time comes.

Will you be making some form of mark on your hand to prove it's you?

Are you furthermore aware that what you have just said you're gonna do is illegal?

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*shrugs* You can choose not to believe me if you want. Not my problem.

I've already made a commitment to provide photographic evidence for the forum in the form of my ballot paper with the cross as and when the time comes.

Hmm...

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Will you be making some form of mark on your hand to prove it's you?

Are you furthermore aware that what you have just said you're gonna do is illegal?

No and yes. I'm living life dangerously. Feel free to send Police Scotland onto me. No doubt they'll send me off to the Gulag.

Hmm...

It's not my problem. That doesn't mean I won't honour a promise I made in the past to the good people of Pie and Bovril.

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Again this word "enjoys". So I'll ask you the same questions I asked HB and Reynard (while I'm not impressed with his answer at least he bothered to type a response). Why is there a political party campaigning to leave the EU? Why is a referendum on taking the UK out of the EU a distinct possibility? Why do a lot of people south of the border want to leave? These terms don't seem to be that enjoyable, do they?

Same up here

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I think we will get much the same terms as any of the wee skooshy countries. And those terms are worse that the UK's.

I'd prefer us to be independent of the union if we are going to all this hassle.

Lies. In terms of relative voting power, the "wee skooshy countries" have relatively more power than the UK.

^^ Extracting one of the good things and presenting it as the definitive answer, in a Reynardesque manner.

Edited by strichener

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Lies. In terms of relative voting power, the "wee skooshy countries" have relatively more power than the UK.

^^ Extracting one of the good things and presenting it as the definitive answer, in a Reynardesque manner.

Is this your latest mantra?

Its as pish and weak as all the rest you attempt.

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Is this your latest mantra?

Its as pish and weak as all the rest you attempt.

Awww, getting more ruffled now are we? Where are those pension figures?

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BBC is a Unionist organisation.

Does that make it acceptable? They are publicly funded. The BBC should not be an extension of project fear.

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