Scottish Independence

[H_B]

. Do you know many people in a postition to save? I don't.

So you don't know many people who buy any sort of luxury items at all with their salaries?

They don't buy alcohol or cigarettes, or magazines or DVDs? they don't have nice TVs or take any form of holidays abroad, go to the cinema, football matches or etc etc.

The vast majority of working people could save if they chose to - people instead prefer to prioritise the now rather than the future. I don't have a problem with that - you could drop dead at 40, so why deny yourself luxuries when you can enjoy them.

Many people consider "savings" as "any money over and above the bills plus all the other things I want to spend money on". That's the problem.

[invergowrie arab]

So you don't know many people who buy any sort of luxury items at all with their salaries?

They don't buy alcohol or cigarettes, or magazines or DVDs? they don't have nice TVs or take any form of holidays abroad, go to the cinema, football matches or etc etc.

I get all that off the credit card

[Confidemus]

I thought you hung out with a load of volvo employees....

The gaps appearing in your cover story are wider than your wife's gash, imo

Volvo employees? I'm afraid I haven't a clue what you're blathering on about.

I know lots of people in a position to save, but then I'm part of the goalkeepers' union.

Oscar. Mike. Golf.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I'm not going to go into your perception of poverty, because we'll be here all day, but on your point about saving. Do you know many people in a postition to save? I don't.

Describe to a Brazilian in a favella what you consider to be poverty and they would look at you as if you were a fool.

That's the issue with the term - when the liberal classes in this country use emotive blackmailing language around poverty - they conveniently forget that what they are talking about is relative not absolute poverty.

I am not saying it's right but for me it misses the point entirely. By current definitions I would have been classed as having an impoverished background - but personally would never have considered myself as being in poverty. Yes it was tough at times but we just got on with it.

[Baxter Parp]

Describe to a Brazilian in a favella what you consider to be poverty and they would look at you as if you were a fool.

We're not Brazilian, we don't live in favelas, of course our definition of poverty is different. Rightly so.

[Confidemus]

Describe to a Brazilian in a favella what you consider to be poverty and they would look at you as if you were a fool.

That's the issue with the term - when the liberal classes in this country use emotive blackmailing language around poverty - they conveniently forget that what they are talking about is relative not absolute poverty.

I am not saying it's right but for me it misses the point entirely. By current definitions I would have been classed as having an impoverished background - but personally would never have considered myself as being in poverty. Yes it was tough at times but we just got on with it.

So just because there are people worse than us, does that stop us from wanting to improve our situation?

The dictionary defines poverty as "The state of being extremely poor". I think that covers someone who cannot afford to heat the food they get from foodbanks don't you?

[Anonapersona]

So you don't know many people who buy any sort of luxury items at all with their salaries?

They don't buy alcohol or cigarettes, or magazines or DVDs? they don't have nice TVs or take any form of holidays abroad, go to the cinema, football matches or etc etc.

The vast majority of working people could save if they chose to - people instead prefer to prioritise the now rather than the future. I don't have a problem with that - you could drop dead at 40, so why deny yourself luxuries when you can enjoy them.

Many people consider "savings" as "any money over and above the bills plus all the other things I want to spend money on". That's the problem.

It says quite a lot when you talk about a TV or a trip to the cinema as a luxury item. Why would anyone even attempt to save money if it means their quality of life gets even more dismal?

[~~~]

Describe to a Brazilian in a favella what you consider to be poverty and they would look at you as if you were a fool.

That's the issue with the term - when the liberal classes in this country use emotive blackmailing language around poverty - they conveniently forget that what they are talking about is relative not absolute poverty.

I am not saying it's right but for me it misses the point entirely. By current definitions I would have been classed as having an impoverished background - but personally would never have considered myself as being in poverty. Yes it was tough at times but we just got on with it.

Sorry if you're cold and hungry, but shut up and don't complain about it, people elsewhere are worse off

Great argument IMO

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Sorry if you're cold and hungry, but shut up and don't complain about it, people elsewhere are worse off

Great argument IMO

But not everyone classed as being in poverty is cold and hungry - yes there are cases where prople have ended up like that through no fault of their own. Equally there are people who end up being cold and hungry through their own fecklessness.

Getting a welfare system that looks after the vulnerable whilst not encouraging fecklessness is a difficult task. Perhaps the emphasis needs to be switched to getting people out of poverty through support and economic measures.

[1320Lichtie]

Said this before but until the weans of Possil Park are out fetching water from the burns and kicking about in tattie pokes for clothes the NO side will argue that they aren't in poverty.... Unreal

[forever_blue]

Said this before but until the weans of Possil Park are out fetching water from the burns and kicking about in tattie pokes for clothes the NO side will argue that they aren't in poverty.... Unreal

christ , that would be an improvement for the weans of possilpark

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Said this before but until the weans of Possil Park are out fetching water from the burns and kicking about in tattie pokes for clothes the NO side will argue that they aren't in poverty.... Unreal

That's the sort of pish you hear from the Trot Nats.

Dead easy for middle class liberals to go on some poverty crusade - so long as they aren't paying for it.

[RedRob72]

So just because there are people worse than us, does that stop us from wanting to improve our situation?

The dictionary defines poverty as "The state of being extremely poor". I think that covers someone who cannot afford to heat the food they get from foodbanks don't you?

There's undoubtedly an issue to be addressed no matter who takes up the reigns in Holyrood in Sept, but to suggest the levels of poverty have us on the precipice of disaster just isn’t true.

Some interesting stats on the Joseph Roundtree Foundation website that don’t necessarily meet with your assertions in this respect, or that the Streets of London are paved with Gold.

http://data.jrf.org.uk/?gclid=CPmlsq3O6r8CFXDLtAodjXcACA

[Baxter Parp]

But not everyone classed as being in poverty is cold and hungry - yes there are cases where prople have ended up like that through no fault of their own. Equally there are people who end up being cold and hungry through their own fecklessness.

Define feckless and how it can be detected in offenders.

[Confidemus]

There's undoubtedly an issue to be addressed no matter who takes up the reigns in Holyrood in Sept, but to suggest the levels of poverty have us on the precipice of disaster just isn’t true.

Some interesting stats on the Joseph Roundtree Foundation website that don’t necessarily meet with your assertions in this respect, or that the Streets of London are paved with Gold.

http://data.jrf.org.uk/?gclid=CPmlsq3O6r8CFXDLtAodjXcACA

I can't get the link to work, care to give me a brief outline of what it says?

So you're fine with record levels of poverty and the biggest wealth gap in Europe are you?

[RedRob72]

I can't get the link to work, care to give me a brief outline of what it says?

So you're fine with record levels of poverty and the biggest wealth gap in Europe are you?

The Link works fine for me.

• Suggests that Child Poverty in Britain has fallen between 2002 & 2013
• States that child poverty rate has fallen across all regions, with the largest falls in Scotland and the North East
• Suggests that pensioner poverty has also declined in that same period
• Absolute and relative poverty over time ( after housing costs) has also reduced from 1997/98
• Record numbers in work
• Proportion of Women in low paid jobs, huge decrease since 2001

​etc..etc..

Don't shoot the messenger they're not my stats, they just paint a different picture to your take on record levels of poverty in the UK at present.

[joozy]

I can't get the link to work, care to give me a brief outline of what it says?

So you're fine with record levels of poverty and the biggest wealth gap in Europe are you?

What would you consider an acceptable wealth gap? What do you even mean anyway? The UK's wealth gap (see p98 onwards of the below link) is not the largest in Europe.

https://publications.credit-suisse.com/tasks/render/file/?fileID=1949208D-E59A-F2D9-6D0361266E44A2F8

If you're referring solely to income inequality, what effect does the presence of London and the South East have on the UK's statistics? Removing a sizeable proportion of the country's highest earners would automatically lower the GINI income coefficient....why would this be a good thing exactly?

Also, what exactly are you referring to by poverty? Do we mean absolute poverty? Relative poverty? Social exclusion? If we're just talking about poverty as a proportion of the median income then that is very different from people living destitute lives.

[invergowrie arab]

Describe to a Brazilian in a favella what you consider to be poverty and they would look at you as if you were a fool.

That's the issue with the term - when the liberal classes in this country use emotive blackmailing language around poverty - they conveniently forget that what they are talking about is relative not absolute poverty.

I am not saying it's right but for me it misses the point entirely. By current definitions I would have been classed as having an impoverished background - but personally would never have considered myself as being in poverty. Yes it was tough at times but we just got on with it.

And are you happy that you were in that position that it was tough and you just had to get on with it?

The issue about poverty isn't about wether people are cold, hungry, healthy etc in global terms. It is about the poverty gap in the country that we live in and whether or not it is acceptable that people born in certain communities in this country have appreciably worse life chances than their neighbours.

It is about more than "it isnae fair" either. Societies with social mobility, educated and motivated populations and where the brightest and best can rise to the top in a meritocracy with the barriers to participation removed are obviously going to flourish compared to those where folk "just get on with it" and accept their station in life.

This isnt even a yes/no, left/right argument it is absolute basics, how to structure a society 101.

[Confidemus]

Redrob - I won't shoot the messenger. Where did you get those stats? Or rather, where did the link get those stats from? I can't access it (which is not denying it's existence, I just can't get it to work?)

The Child Poverty Action Group ( http://www.cpag.org.uk/scotland ) is a good source of information, imo.

Here's a couple of soundbites from them.

"Official 2012/13 child poverty statistics for Scotland show that 30,000 more children are living in poverty. John Dickie, Head of CPAG in Scotland said, "These figures mark the turning of the tide on child poverty as UK Government tax and benefit policies slash family income at the same time as wages stagnate"

AND

“The warnings of a surge in child poverty are bleak, but hardly surprising when families have been put in the frontline of austerity and the back of the queue for the recovery.

“One of the most worrying things about Britain’s growing child poverty problem is it’s mainly families who have work who are still left in poverty. Something’s gone very badly wrong with our economy when the richest 5 families in Britain have more wealth than the poorest 12 million people.

“When you look at the draft child poverty strategy, there simply isn’t a clear plan for living wages, affordable housing and affordable childcare. Child benefit and child tax credits are still being cut this year and next too. It’s a political choice to do this, and it will take a political choice to stop it.”

Also, I find it interesting that the ones who try and mewl and whine that poverty in Scotland isn't real poverty are No voters.

[Tryfield]

Mother nature has joined the NO side.