Scottish Independence

[git-intae-thum]

Wow you are nationalistic.

Salmond is doing well, he's really stirred you up.

Tell me whats happening "up there" thats so diffent to Sunderland, Lancaster or Bangor. You having a s*** time of it like most of the EU? Tell me why you are so diffent?

What is happening up there?

Great. Another johnny come lately with absolutely nothing of use to contribute. Your just too late pal. Cheerio.

[MangoBroccoli]

I don't class myself as British, Im English, this is not about being British, It's about the fact that redrawing boarders, no mater if the previously existed or not is a bad idea, it almost always causes problems. Britishness is a word that people in the south east use, no one in the north says they are "British". But, am I a world appart from the people of the South East? Nope, but I will cause a divide if vote to be a diffent country.

Is there anyone from Lands end to John o'groats that is truley that differnt. Nationalism is dangous, and if it's stoked then it causes problems. Im proud to be English, and proud to be in a union with Scotland. But should Scotland want out then that will cause English and Welsh nationalisim. It's inevitable.

Should the Cornish, break away? what about Yorkshire? Salmond will win no mater what anyway, and the Scots will get as much powers as they want no matter the vote. But to leave a formal 300 year union, because you see the grass as greener or you want to disacioate from the tory south, is fragmentaion for the sake of it.

I wouldn't touch Scotish prodicts if they voted yes, becuse they just said "We are better off without you". I like Scotland, but the opion will cahnge if Scoland votes yes. So be it, vote yes, but don't expect scotish products to gain in popularity after a yes vote in the rest of the UK, because they won't.

Im English. But I don't want England to go it alone. Because without Scottland and Wales, we are just another small country, that was left after the UK disintegrated.

Im glad you mention Northern Island and the error britain made to let it remain as part of the Union. Because, we redrew the boarder it caused a world of hate. But if we had not... It would be a situation like east Ukraine, where there are Russians inside the Ukraiian boarder. They took the exact oppersite approch to the UK, and as it turned out, it didn't take much to screw that place up too. No mater what happens redwaring boarders causes chaos .

It's your choice, but it's an unfair vote, because it will effect the rest of the UK the same as it effects scotland, and I should get a vote on my future too. I resent that I don't get to vote on keeping the UK together. The whole UK should vote if to break up or not.

If it aint broke don't fix it. Devolution and extra powers, but to cut a country in 2 is foolish IMHO. Im trying to think of a time when boarders were redwarn peacfully without lasting damage.

Should Scoland vote YES, it will cause a S***storm of hate and nationalism.

Please as a person that has seen first hand what nationalism does to a family, a town and a country. consider voting NO.

So you don't use any Irish products either? How about America? Both these countries have broken free of Britain in the past, and in a fashion way more brutal and violent than Scotland are considering.

The fact that your opinion on Scotland would change for the worse should they vote Yes just shows you don't grasp the independence argument and clearly haven't considered it from Scotland's POV

[actonsheep]

Wow you are nationalistic.

Salmond is doing well, he's really stirred you up.

Tell me whats happening "up there" thats so diffent to Sunderland, Lancaster or Bangor. You having a s*** time of it like most of the EU? Tell me why you are so diffent?

What is happening up there?

Sorry, please point out where i mentioned the Scottish?

Are the English for Yes people being nationalistic? Italians for Yes? What about the Scots Asians for Yes?

Its about Scotland, a country, wanting to govern itself, for the benefit of everyone here, now and in the future, no matter where they have come from.

And as sorry as I feel for the people of Sunderland, Lancaster or Bangor for not being in a position to escape from Westminster rule, the basic unit of national democrary is the country, not the city, region or town.

Solidarity can only go so far.

[Anonapersona]

No you need to point it out. Because I really don't get it... you're right!

Tell me where the put down was?

I'm sorry dude but you really need to figure this out for yourself. It will be good for you, it really will.

[Guest]

I'd like this fella to directly answer my point on whether he'd encourage the UK to form a political union and a new nation with our neighbours France? A history of working together plenty of times - check. More resources to share across both nations, which apparently leads to more security - check. Basically the same people, as are all people what with him saying himself he isn't a nationalist - check.

Please tell me why we shouldn't join up with the French if Scotland stays together?

[SoulMate]

Hello All,

I'm a proud Englishman and I come in peace … basically because I am a little mystified about the whole Scottish Independence debate and the seemingly entrenched positions I see all over the internet, as well as the vitriol you come across on both sides of the debate/argument.

I'm from the South West of England and can trace my family roots back more than 10 generations and (apart from a German great-great-grandmother!) am solidly Anglo-Saxon so I don't have any Scottish roots. I do understand the nationalism argument though, as I'm sure I'm as rabidly 'English' as any of you are 'Scottish' and I certainly have no love for politicos and/or Westminster (or Brussels for that matter).

That being said I am an historian and, as such, and without any bias (I hope) I've tried to rationalise the whole debate in these terms and I honestly cannot see any real overwhelming necessity for Scottish Independence … sorry to those of the 'YES' persuasion!

Reading through some of the posts in this thread I see that many of the points made are disputed and there are figures bandied about for the past few years that show this benefit, this downside, etc. However, in a historical context, everything I've seen seems a little short-sighted especially as a 'YES' vote will be binding forever maybe (barring some new Darien adventure).

Surely the case for or against independence must be wider than that – two or three (or five) years is no time at all and we all know that there is no way Scotland will fall apart and become a basket case as some would suggest. If Scotland votes for Independence it will, on the whole, be fine more or less given a few inevitable hiccups and some probable blunders by mindless politicians. It is ever thus …

How about though in a generation (or two) … what then? My problem with Independence going forward is what Scotland could lose out with a dislocation from the rest of the UK. And believe me there will be dislocation … I think everyone is underestimating the resentment that will be felt in England (and Wales and Northern Ireland) should the vote be 'YES'. It is real – in Scotland you may not know that there are serious 'boycott Scotland' campaigns being organised. And not only in middle England.

I'll try to reason this out with a few examples of how Scotland's wealth/prosperity/success has benefitted from being an integral part of the UK. It's not that an independent Scotland couldn't do this, just that it wouldn't be as organic (however you'd like it to be) and the flow of benefits (OK, I mean money) wouldn't necessarily (if at all) go to Scotland. There is a reason why London and the South East is relatively rich – it houses the banks, money lenders, sharks, etc, and all investment unfortunately needs these people who need returns on their investment and that is why all of the following famous Scottish inventors needed the assistance of the larger market of the UK to succeed …

James Watt attempted to commercialise his invention, but experienced great financial difficulties until he entered a partnership with English manufacturer Matthew Boulton in 1775. The new firm of Boulton and Watt (based in the West Midlands) was eventually highly successful and Watt became a wealthy man.

In his laboratory in Soho, London, on 2 October 1925, John Logie Baird successfully transmitted the first television picture with a greyscale image: the head of a ventriloquist's dummy nicknamed "Stooky Bill" in a 30-line vertically scanned image, at five pictures per second. On 26 January 1926, Baird repeated the transmission for members of the Royal Institution and a reporter from The Times in his laboratory at 22 Frith Street.

The laboratory in which Alexander Fleming discovered and tested penicillin is preserved as the Alexander Fleming Laboratory Museum in St. Mary's Hospital, Paddington, London.

Thomas Telford worked for a time in Edinburgh but in 1782 he moved to London where, after meeting architects Robert Adam and Sir William Chambers , he was involved in building additions to Somerset House there … As the Shropshire county surveyor, Telford was also responsible for bridges. In 1790 he designed a bridge carrying the London-Holyhead road over the River Severn at Montford, the first of some 40 bridges he built in Shropshire, including major crossings of the Severn at Buildwas, and Bridgnorth. The bridge at Buildwas was Telford's first iron bridge.

I repeat, Scotland can succeed as an independent country but historical precedent says that this success is quicker, easier and more long lasting as part of the Union. There is a reason why the vast majority of the greatest Scottish inventors were born in Scotland but lived, worked and died in England or elsewhere (spend a few minutes on Wikipedia). Just for giggles, here's another part of the UK that has helped Scottish inventors conquer the world:

In 1887, John Boyd Dunlop developed the first practical pneumatic or inflatable tyre for his son's tricycle, fitting it to a wooden disc 96cm across in the yard of his home in Belfast.

Also, one of your previous posters said: "This 'Britain' thing is England's last vestige of their colonial past where they dominated, bullied, ruled & looked after Londonshire first & foremost, then dished out their soapy seconds to their subservient charges." I'm sorry but this is the biggest load of claptrap I've ever read … no one exploited the Empire and all its worst excesses more than the Scots:

Scotland profited from the slave trade in a big way, and it changed the face of Glasgow in particular. When Bishop Pococke visited Glasgow in 1760, he remarked that "the city has above all others felt the advantages of the union in the West Indian trade which is very great, especially in tobacco, indigoes and sugar". Glasgow does not readily admit its history in the way that other cities in the United Kingdom have done - Bristol, Liverpool, London. What about Buchanan Street, the great shopping street, named after Andrew Buchanan, a tobacco lord, or Jamaica Street, Tobago Street, the Kingston Bridge? At school, we learn that Glasgow was a great merchant city. We learn about the shipping industry, but not about the slave ship Neptune that arrived in Carlisle Bay, Barbados, on May 22 1731, after leaving Port Glasgow months earlier, carrying 144 enslaved Africans, half of whom were children. When they arrived they were "polished" - meaning a layer of skin was removed with fierce scrubbing - and a wadding rammed up the rectum of those who had dysentery, and then put up for sale.

If you've got this far then well done (!!) and I apologise for going on (I could have continued for ages) if you've a mind to respond I'd like to know what you all think …

[Guest]

When the Welsh join one by one to tell us how annoyed they'll be with us leaving like it's all about them as well, we riot.

I think everyone is underestimating the resentment that will be felt in England (and Wales and Northern Ireland) should the vote be 'YES'. It is real – in Scotland you may not know that there are serious 'boycott Scotland' campaigns being organised. And not only in middle England.

[P45]

A boycott?

Toys are being ousted from pram by Englanders everywhere.

[Anonapersona]

A boycott?

Toys are being ousted from pram by Englanders everywhere.

Not too keen on democracy, these English.

[Guest]

Btw, any English, Welsh or Norn Irish person reading this may not be aware, but there has already been a campaign in this country to remind us on a daily basis what a disaster it would be to run our own affairs like nearly every nation on earth does. This campaign has single-handedly resulted in one of the biggest political shifts in known to man, with one of the most negative, defeatist nations on earth a bawhair away from deciding to run its own affairs.

If you feel strongly about it then my best advice is to leave it alone and hope the Scottish people's natural negativity does the bizzo for you, because telling us all what a disaster it'll be isn't working very well so far.

[SoulMate]

Not too keen on democracy, these English.

Sorry but what has this got to do with democacy ... 5 million people voting on the future of 60 million

[Anonapersona]

Sorry but what has this got to do with democacy ... 5 million people voting on the future of 60 million

It's a union. Not ownership.

[Guest]

Sorry but what has this got to do with democacy ... 5 million people voting on the future of 60 million

Should people in Scotland and England have had a vote on Ireland gaining independence? Or America? Should people in Russia have had a say on the future of Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus and many others?

You aren't really grasping this whole separation thing. "I'm leaving you". "Well I vote that you aren't, and the dog abstains". Happily ever after.

[SlipperyP]

Hello All,

If you've got this far then well done (!!) and I apologise for going on (I could have continued for ages) if you've a mind to respond I'd like to know what you all think …

Thanks for the high school history lesson.

Sorry to disappoint you, but this referendum is about the future. Not for a few years, for ever. Imagine that, the people who live in Scotland making all the decision all of the time.

Hope you don't boycott too much, you'll get hell of a thirsty down there.

[SoulMate]

Should people in Scotland and England have had a vote on Ireland gaining independence? Or America? Should people in Russia have had a say on the future of Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus and many others?

You aren't really grasping this whole separation thing. "I'm leaving you". "Well I vote that you aren't, and the dog abstains". Happily ever after.

And yet I can't 'democratically' decide to buy local UK produce rather than from a foreign country ... and if I do so I'm kicking my toys out of the pram! And when were all these votes for independence then? So, to sum up, you're leaving me (very strange terminology) and a dog is involved somewhere ... waht about the other points in my original post. Do you not think it's a more important issue than this ...?

[Arabdownunder]

...all of the following famous Scottish inventors needed the assistance of the larger market of the UK to succeed …

So as part of the union, Scots had to leave to be a success. Maybe if they'd been in an independent country they wouldn't have left?

[Anonapersona]

And yet I can't 'democratically' decide to buy local UK produce rather than from a foreign country ... and if I do so I'm kicking my toys out of the pram! And when were all these votes for independence then? So, to sum up, you're leaving me (very strange terminology) and a dog is involved somewhere ... waht about the other points in my original post. Do you not think it's a more important issue than this ...?

Your other points........

You mean the boycott Scotland campaign?

Or the fact that Scots can't seem to do anything creative unless they are physically outside Scotland?

Not patronizing at all there, bud.

[SoulMate]

Thanks for the high school history lesson.

Sorry to disappoint you, but this referendum is about the future. Not for a few years, for ever. Imagine that, the people who live in Scotland making all the decision all of the time.

Hope you don't boycott too much, you'll get hell of a thirsty down there.

Just to make clear, I won't be boycotting anything (and we have the best cider in the world anyway) but my post was all about forever and not just a few years. Of course, if Scotland goes for independence then good luck to you. I've no axe to grind. I'm just posing the question that in my opinion it seems as if the process (at least from down here) has descended into a slanging match and short-termism which is really disappointing when so much is at stake ...

[Guest]

And yet I can't 'democratically' decide to buy local UK produce rather than from a foreign country ... and if I do so I'm kicking my toys out of the pram! And when were all these votes for independence then? So, to sum up, you're leaving me (very strange terminology) and a dog is involved somewhere ... waht about the other points in my original post. Do you not think it's a more important issue than this ...?

You can democratically decide to buy and not buy whatever product you like, just as I can democratically decide not too give one singular f**k if you're boycotting Scottish products because you're annoyed by a political vote. Btw, why even mention that? Are you honestly saying people in Scotland should have their feelings on the most important political decision of their life affected by English people threatening to stop buying shortbread? Fucking hell, and you wonder why people are unsatisfied?

Well "leaving" isn't strange terminology, seeing as Scotland is voting on whether to leave the union, and of course it shouldn't the whole of the UK's vote. You don't understand what self-determination is if you think Scottish people's desire to run our own affairs should be undercut by the rest of the UK voting for us to stay. Be it a political union or actual people, not everyone can have a vote on whether you leave or not. That's up to the person or indeed the country.

As for your original post, it seems to be a big list of ways in which Scotland benefited from the union 300 years ago. I don't agree that this is a good enough reason for Scotland to stay part of something that no longer benefits us, where the Scottish vote hasn't made a difference in elections since the 1930's. Thanks for caring, but ultimately it makes no difference and the people in Scotland will (quite rightly) decide for themselves.

[SoulMate]

Your other points........

You mean the boycott Scotland campaign?

Or the fact that Scots can't seem to do anything creative unless they are physically outside Scotland?

Not patronizing at all there, bud.

F*** me!! Not patronising but the truth. The thing is they left Scotland but not the country ... and that's the point. As a larger entity there are more sources of skills, money, resources, etc. Do you want me to give examples of innovation, investment, etc, that went the other way, i.e. into Scotland, as there are plenty of these as well. That was the whole original purpose of the EU (before it veered off into a social engineering project) and largely it has been successful in this. Economists now talk about other trading blocs (BRIC countries for example) as this is the future and Scottish Independence seems to go against this. I'm only posing questions ...