Scottish Independence

[Blaven]

And this is excactly why I'm not on Facebook.

I'm amazed they can work a computer to get on facebook.

[Confidemus]

Wow. There's a hell of a lot of closet right wing Tories on this thread.

Ad Lib, H_B, Tio Pepe. Genuinely surprised and saddened to hear young people talking like this.

Clearly not one of them has endured any hardship and if they have, clearly they've forgotten what it feels like.

That's what gets me.

How can you not vote AGAINST austerity cuts?

It feels entirely natural to abhor what this Government are doing to the most vulnerable in our society.

[Mr Bairn]

That's what gets me.

How can you not vote AGAINST austerity cuts?

It feels entirely natural to abhor what this Government are doing to the most vulnerable in our society.

Well you don't want the country to be in mountains of debt, so austerity cuts are necessary.

[pandarilla]

Well you don't want the country to be in mountains of debt, so austerity cuts are necessary.

That pretty much sums up all your contributions in this sub-forum.

Wildly misinformed and a tad simple.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Have you SEEN the alternatives down there?

Sheesh.

Have you SEEN the alternatives up here?

Sheesh.

[Confidemus]

Well you don't want the country to be in mountains of debt, so austerity cuts are necessary.

I'm not even going to justify that with an answer.

[Mr Bairn]

That pretty much sums up all your contributions in this sub-forum.

Wildly misinformed and a tad simple.

Well, you could raise taxes, but that's hardly going to help people either.

[speckled tangerine]

Sorry to pish on your chips but there is genuine poverty in this country. Here and now. For every headline in the daily mail about some waster family claiming thousands, there are hundreds of thousands of ordinary folk up shit creek. It doesn't make a headline. It doesn't bring click through.

My father lost his business in the early 80s recession. We were living on the square route of f**k all as he tried to find another job, pishing the last of our savings on the mortgage for a room and kitchen. My parents ate badly or sometimes not at all. I was eight years old going to school in trousers with leather patches on the knees and wellies in the summer as the sole came off my cheepo gola trainers. My mum broke down in tears at that one. Couldn't afford the basics and saw no light at the end of the tunnel. And here we are again.

Coming across the bridge tonight seeing the aircraft carrier at Rosyth made me angry. The first of two multi billion white elephants of an increasingly short cocked nation waving them at f**k knows who. They won't even have planes and the second one probably won't even see service.

Then we get naive idiots like Mr bairn talking a load of shite about austerity? That's recession three in my lifetime- and the last two were caused by the greed of the city of London.

I'll be voting yes.

[Confidemus]

Sorry to pish on your chips but there is genuine poverty in this country. Here and now. For every headline in the daily mail about some waster family claiming thousands, there are hundreds of thousands of ordinary folk up shit creek. It doesn't make a headline. It doesn't bring click through.

My father lost his business in the early 80s recession. We were living on the square route of f**k all as he tried to find another job, pishing the last of our savings on the mortgage for a room and kitchen. My parents ate badly or sometimes not at all. I was eight years old going to school in trousers with leather patches on the knees and wellies in the summer as the sole came off my cheepo gola trainers. My mum broke down in tears at that one. Couldn't afford the basics and saw no light at the end of the tunnel. And here we are again.

Coming across the bridge tonight seeing the aircraft carrier at Rosyth made me angry. The first of two multi billion white elephants of an increasingly short cocked nation waving them at f**k knows who. They won't even have planes and the second one probably won't even see service.

Then we get naive idiots like Mr bairn talking a load of shite about austerity? That's recession three in my lifetime- and the last two were caused by the greed of the city of London.

I'll be voting yes.

Excellent post.

Read this, Mr Bairn. Then read it again. Then again, until you feel genuine, burning shame.

Then vote Yes.

[Tubbs]

But even without the cock waving; post yes defence spending in Scotland would go up, apparently - to defend against what or intervene against whom it is not clear. So not sure the spending money on the military issue will improve with a yes.

[Mr Bairn]

Excellent post.

Read this, Mr Bairn. Then read it again. Then again, until you feel genuine, burning shame.

Then vote Yes.

You still haven't figured out how we're going to get by without paying back the national debt.

[Baxter Parp]

But even without the cock waving; post yes defence spending in Scotland would go up, apparently - to defend against what or intervene against whom it is not clear. So not sure the spending money on the military issue will improve with a yes.

Defence spending within Scotland would go up but would still be less than Scottish taxpayers pay to westminster for defence. Pretty simple.

[Ad Lib]

Wow. There's a hell of a lot of closet right wing Tories on this thread.

Ad Lib, H_B, Tio Pepe. Genuinely surprised and saddened to hear young people talking like this.

Clearly not one of them has endured any hardship and if they have, clearly they've forgotten what it feels like.

Excuse me?

How is saying that I have no sympathy for people who took out mortgages beyond the credible long-term value of the home they decided to buy "Tory"? It is precisely the speculative investment in the housing market that was encouraged by Thatcher's policies augmented by New Labour that I oppose.

How is saying that people living in houses worth more than 15 times the average household income of this country should pay more towards the provision of schools, hospitals, clean running water, bin collections and sewage "Tory"? The last time I checked, we live in a society where people in detached houses are generally more able to make a financial contribution towards collective services than those who live in a two-bed flat in a scheme. Council tax already places a, broadly, bigger burden on those who live in Jordanhill postcodes than Knightswood. I think that should be more extreme. Why is this unfair or Tory?

The argument that increasing council tax is bad because of people in big houses with a mortgage that might suffer negative equity is absolutely bullshit or an argument for the poll tax. Which is it to be?

How is saying that the state shouldn't actively pursue policies which encourage people to buy homes they can't afford "Tory"?

[ayrmad]

You still haven't figured out how we're going to get by without paying back the national debt.

And when does this happen?

[I'm Brian]

But even without the cock waving; post yes defence spending in Scotland would go up, apparently - to defend against what or intervene against whom it is not clear. So not sure the spending money on the military issue will improve with a yes.

Except defence spending as is proposed should the SNP come to government is lower than it currently is(Not sure if the trident savings come into this). So overall defence spending would be less than we currently contribute to the UK's defence budget.

However of the 3.4 bn we currently contribute only 1.8 bn is spent in Scotland. The proposed defence budget is 2.5bn(Comparable with similar sized countries) . So we would be able to spend more and save at the same time. What a great position to be in. (Figures may not be exact, but are in the rough area)

[Confidemus]

You still haven't figured out how we're going to get by without paying back the national debt.

How's that going to pan out then?

And what does national debt have to do with it?

You genuinely don't think we can, do you?

[H_B]

Sorry to pish on your chips but there is genuine poverty in this country. Here and now. For every headline in the daily mail about some waster family claiming thousands, there are hundreds of thousands of ordinary folk up shit creek. It doesn't make a headline. It doesn't bring click through.

My father lost his business in the early 80s recession. We were living on the square route of f**k all as he tried to find another job, pishing the last of our savings on the mortgage for a room and kitchen. My parents ate badly or sometimes not at all. I was eight years old going to school in trousers with leather patches on the knees and wellies in the summer as the sole came off my cheepo gola trainers. My mum broke down in tears at that one. Couldn't afford the basics and saw no light at the end of the tunnel. And here we are again.

Coming across the bridge tonight seeing the aircraft carrier at Rosyth made me angry. The first of two multi billion white elephants of an increasingly short cocked nation waving them at f**k knows who. They won't even have planes and the second one probably won't even see service.

Then we get naive idiots like Mr bairn talking a load of shite about austerity? That's recession three in my lifetime- and the last two were caused by the greed of the city of London.

I'll be voting yes.

Sounds like your parents made some bad choices to be honest... though certainly for admirable reasons.

With our benefits system there is no reason for people to be starving in this country. If anyone is then they are spending their money badly or not claiming the correct levels of benefits for their situation.

I grew up in a council house and we didn't have money. I never went on a foreign holiday for example til i was able to pay for one. We didn't have a car most of the time. My dad worked 3 or 4 low paid low houra jobs at times.

Yet we didn't live in poverty. Under the current measure we would certainly have fallen into the definition.

People don't budget well and use the money they have. They also make bad choices. The 'roof over your head ' example is one. There's no shame in renting. Or living in a council property.

As with living under a mountain of debt too many people through pride or lack if awareness if their options make bad choices to keep battling the impossible.

[Confidemus]

Sounds like your parents made some bad choices to be honest... What a horrendous thing to say

With our benefits system there is no reason for people to be starving in this country. And yet there are people starving. Funny that.

I grew up in a council house I don't believe you

[Tubbs]

Can't afford?

Who is talking about people buying houses they can't afford?

Did I mention that?

Did anyone?

I'm talking about someone with a £40k job who has a mortgage of almost ANY size. Let's say he ignores all his overtime to be safe. He plays safe on the multiples of his income he borrows against and borrows £100k which is WELL under the maximum reasonable mortgage you should borrow (which is 3 times your annual salary). It's also well under the national average mortgage.

His repayments will be about £600 per month. Very easily affordable on £40k per year.

At this point the guy literally couldn't be taking fewer risks as far as borrowing is concerned.

He then loses his job because the factory shuts down.

His skill set is not in demand in say Fife and so he can't get a comparable income.

He's perhaps 48 years old so he's struggling to get interviews anyway but let's leave that to one side.

His house is up for sale that can take two years, he's not getting any interest form buyers (because there aren't any) and the house is only worth say £90k because of what happened in 2008.

He's collecting some job seekers allowance and housing benefit if he's luck but they are going to remove all of that because he's been offered a job paying £1000 per month.

His outgoings however are £600 for mortgage, possibly £150 for council tax, £100 for gas and electricity if he's careful, £150 for travelling or petrol getting to work 50 miles away totalling £1000 and he's not bought food yet.

The man is in deep fucking shit. He'll almost certainly lose his house and STILL owe £10k plus costs to repay the rest.

He comes to you as his Lib Dem MSP or MP and asks for help about what the hell to do.

Your answer is to tell him "Fucking Tough".

Seriously?

You must be on the wind up here.

What should happen ? the state underwrites everyone's mortgage thus encouraging reckless behaviour.

The idea that poverty and inequality is the no position and wealth and equality is yes is jam tomorrow at its most optimistic if not downright lying.

[doulikefish]

Good news for yes as Dave "i wont get involved its for the scottish people blah blah balh but im shit scared of a debate with big eck" is to come north on a series of day trips to argue the case for the union