Scottish Independence

[Burma]

One for the Law squad. Not read it myself yet so don't know how relevant it is to Scottish independence

Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties

http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/3_2_1978.pdf

Am sure the law squad (chuckle) did it previously. In their highly sought after opinion.....it means we are fucked.

[H_B]

One for the Law squad. Not read it myself yet so don't know how relevant it is to Scottish independence

Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties

http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/3_2_1978.pdf

Any idea which countries are signatories to this?

I do!

[xbl]

I remember this one! The law squad took an absolute pounding on this one! God bless retconning history.

[xbl]

Perhaps HB can define when "kicking out day" will be? Will it be before we declare independence? And how long will we spend on the naughty step before we're allowed to rejoin?

[H_B]

Perhaps HB can define when "kicking out day" will be? Will it be before we declare independence? And how long will we spend on the naughty step before we're allowed to rejoin?

That depends on how the negotiations go.

Still, at least everyone knows Nicola Sturgeon is a liar now, and we've advanced far beyond the co-equal successor state bullshit she's peddled to much hilarity, onto the topic of New Scotland negotiating with the other members like the UK about what her terms of joining the EU would be.

[xbl]

That depends on how the negotiations go.

Still, at least everyone knows Nicola Sturgeon is a liar now, and we've advanced far beyond the co-equal successor state bullshit she's peddled to much hilarity, onto the topic of New Scotland negotiating with the other members like the UK about what her terms of joining the EU would be.

Oh no. I thought it was definite that we had to leave the EU? When will kicking out day. You have never challenged claims on here that we can not negotiate from within the CDU. So I ask again, when will we be leaving the EU?

[Baxter Parp]

 

That depends on how the negotiations go. 

 

Still, at least everyone knows Nicola Sturgeon is a liar now, and we've advanced far beyond the co-equal successor state bullshit she's peddled to much hilarity, onto the topic of New Scotland negotiating with the other members like the UK about what her terms of joining the EU would be.

The fragrant Nicola didn't lie and never would. As xbl says, what day would we be kicked out of the EU?

[xbl]

The fragrant Nicola didn't lie and never would. As xbl says, what day would we be kicked out of the EU?

After all, none of the law squad challenged the claim that we would not be able to negotiate from within..so there must be a point when we are kicked out. When?

[Ad Lib]

Let me save Ad Lib some time. Post independence, we will be in the EU. Any scenario where we have to sit on the naughty step for a few months is simply not going to happen. Any scenario where Scotland is denied entry is simply not going to happen. Therefore, anyone who says that either of those two scenarios is even slightly realistic is a liar, and probably has to resort to legalistic obfuscation.

No one is disputing that we will be in the EU. But the point is, the fact that the overriding imperative on our part is to be in the EU and not to have any time "on the naughty step" it means that we have to behave in such a way as to absolutely guarantee unanimous and timely consent and ratification by every single other member-state. That means that insofar as there are matters to be negotiated, such as opt-outs and rebates and quotas, these must all be on agreeable terms to the governments of those member-states between 2014 and 2016.

In order for this to be the case, it will be more difficult to secure equivalent terms of membership to those the UK enjoys than it would be if a timetable for independence was being set dependent on the outcome of those same said negotiations. In both cases, we may struggle to keep the rebate. In one of the cases we at least continue by virtue of being contained within the member-state of the UK, to continue to enjoy membership terms and conditions, but with the restriction of not being able to become independent for other international purposes and (as a corollary) several domestic purposes such as defence and foreign affairs. The other scenario involves either having to surrender terms to meet a timetable or to create an anomalous situation of interrupted enjoyment (by legal right) of the single market.

[xbl]

No one is disputing that we will be in the EU.

:: splutter ::

[Jamaldo]

No one is disputing that we will be in the EU. But the point is, the fact that the overriding imperative on our part is to be in the EU and not to have any time "on the naughty step" it means that we have to behave in such a way as to absolutely guarantee unanimous and timely consent and ratification by every single other member-state. That means that insofar as there are matters to be negotiated, such as opt-outs and rebates and quotas, these must all be on agreeable terms to the governments of those member-states between 2014 and 2016.

In order for this to be the case, it will be more difficult to secure equivalent terms of membership to those the UK enjoys than it would be if a timetable for independence was being set dependent on the outcome of those same said negotiations. In both cases, we may struggle to keep the rebate. In one of the cases we at least continue by virtue of being contained within the member-state of the UK, to continue to enjoy membership terms and conditions, but with the restriction of not being able to become independent for other international purposes and (as a corollary) several domestic purposes such as defence and foreign affairs. The other scenario involves either having to surrender terms to meet a timetable or to create an anomalous situation of interrupted enjoyment (by legal right) of the single market.

Do you believe Scotland will recieve bad terms with regards to EU membership? Note that when I say bad, I don't mean worse than the UK''s terms. I mean overall.

If you don't believe our terms will be bad, then why are you making such a huge deal out of this frankly pointless detail?

[Reynard]

Do you believe Scotland will recieve bad terms with regards to EU membership? Note that when I say bad, I don't mean worse than the UK''s terms. I mean overall.

If you don't believe our terms will be bad, then why are you making such a huge deal out of this frankly pointless detail?

I think we will get much the same terms as any of the wee skooshy countries. And those terms are worse that the UK's.

I'd prefer us to be independent of the union if we are going to all this hassle.

[Burma]

I think we will get much the same terms as any of the wee skooshy countries. And those terms are worse that the UK's.

Based on what? You still swallowing the unionist lies while peddling lies of your own.

[Jamaldo]

I think we will get much the same terms as any of the wee skooshy countries. And those terms are worse that the UK's.

I'd prefer us to be independent of the union if we are going to all this hassle.

I asked HB these questions but got no answers. If the UK's terms are so good, why is there a political party campaigning to leave the EU? Why is there constant talk of an In/Out referendum on EU membership? Why is it looking like, if there is a referendum, the result will be for the UK to leave? You can go on about there being no chance of a referendum if you want but it's possible so why are these brilliant terms that the UK has not putting the issue to bed?

[Reynard]

Based on what? You still swallowing the unionist lies while peddling lies of your own.

Based on what all the other skooshy wee countries get told to do.

[Reynard]

I asked HB these questions but got no answers. If the UK's terms are so good, why is there a political party campaigning to leave the EU? Why is there constant talk of an In/Out referendum on EU membership? Why is it looking like, if there is a referendum, the result will be for the UK to leave? You can go on about there being no chance of a referendum if you want but it's possible so why are these brilliant terms that the UK has not putting the issue to bed?

I dont think they are good. But some of the opt outs (particularly the Euro opt out) and things like the rebate and not being near Schengen makes the UK deal "less bad" than it might have been. This isn't to say that I think it's necessarily "good".

As far as I'm concerned the entire EU can get to f**k, its a fucking debacle. But I am sure there are alternative points of view on this.

[xbl]

I'm taking a break from asking for pension figures to take a moment of sheer glee at the inadequate vagueness of that answer. Err, err, schengen, err, err, rebate, umm, stuff too.

[Burma]

Based on what all the other skooshy wee countries get told to do.

Ah. so no actual evidence. just more unionist lies.

[Ad Lib]

Do you believe Scotland will recieve bad terms with regards to EU membership? Note that when I say bad, I don't mean worse than the UK''s terms. I mean overall.

If you don't believe our terms will be bad, then why are you making such a huge deal out of this frankly pointless detail?

I don't believe the default terms of membership of the EU are especially favourable or unfavourable to Scotland. They are, however, considerably less favourable than those the UK enjoys under the status quo.

I'm not "making a huge deal" out of it. I'm asking Yes supporters to be honest about it and to make the intelligent case that explains the overall benefits of independence notwithstanding any substantive changes that take place to our membership terms of international bodies.

Guffawing "we're already in the EU", "we'll be in the EU", and "we won't get kicked out of the EU" are lazy responses and don't make our best case, nor does it answer the No side's argument about the EU at its highest.

That and the SNP have a record of shameless lying on this issue and I believe Pie and Bovril should afford as much scrutiny to SNP lies as lies from other parties. The SNP are not held to account, comparatively speaking on here, unless people like me and H_B point these things out indefinitely until supposedly sane people on the Yes side just accept the very modest claims underpinned by the evidence of international law and precedent about what independence, institutionally, actually means, and therefore the political challenges it presents.

[Burma]

I don't believe the default terms of membership of the EU are especially favourable or unfavourable to Scotland. They are, however, considerably less favourable than those the UK enjoys under the status quo.

.

What exactly are these default terms and will Scotland be in the EU whilst it negotiates them?