THEWHITEGATES Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 At the last ERSJFA meeting (12th Nov.), it was brought up under AOB. Views are being sought from clubs regarding the setting up of a National Junior League - 2 leagues with a Super League made up of top 8 from East and top 6 from West, with a Premier League consisting of bottom 8 from East and bottom 6 from West. Committees have been invited to contact the Secretary with their views to take back to SJFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 At the last ERSJFA meeting (12th Nov.), it was brought up under AOB. Views are being sought from clubs regarding the setting up of a National Junior League - 2 leagues with a Super League made up of top 8 from East and top 6 from West, with a Premier League consisting of bottom 8 from East and bottom 6 from West. Committees have been invited to contact the Secretary with their views to take back to SJFA. This may well be a daft question but why the 8/6 bias? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 This may well be a daft question but why the 8/6 bias? I'd assume to mirror the 16/12 numbers in the respective top leagues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Respective league sizes as our East SL as 16 and West has 12 Doesn't matter. That's just a technical difference. You can't set up a new league, where the main objection will be over traveling distance with 8 teams from one league and 6 from the other. No matter which way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 James you're forgetting the key point here. Its the SJFA therefore logic has nothing to do with it. Haha. Aye, you're right enough. Honestly, if there's a daft way to do something they'll find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Agreed, that would seem rather an odd criteria to base the make-up of a joint league on. Surely you would do it on equitable numbers (7 each), or quality levels (which is always a topic of debate but could be achieved by looking at Junior Cup results or having playoff ties), or having critieria e.g. for facilities. Also, perhaps the poster above is just being brief, but I note he says it is a "National Junior League"... would that not require or justify North involvement? There's also something strange about this... I thought one of Tom Johnstone's biggest criticisms of the Lowland League was its large geographical area? You can hardly cite travel or geography as a reason to stand aloof from a system then move to introduce your own system covering even more territory!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted November 24, 2013 Author Share Posted November 24, 2013 Doesn't matter. That's just a technical difference. You can't set up a new league, where the main objection will be over traveling distance with 8 teams from one league and 6 from the other. No matter which way it is. What you need is leagues of 16 in the West. Your current set up is daft anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Northerner Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Whatever the merits or otherwise of the proposed split, our brethren in the North look as though they've been hung out to dry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Agreed, that would seem rather an odd criteria to base the make-up of a joint league on. Surely you would do it on equitable numbers (7 each), or quality levels (which is always a topic of debate but could be achieved by looking at Junior Cup results or having playoff ties), or having critieria e.g. for facilities. Also, perhaps the poster above is just being brief, but I note he says it is a "National Junior League"... would that not require or justify North involvement? There's also something strange about this... I thought one of Tom Johnstone's biggest criticisms of the Lowland League was its large geographical area? You can hardly cite travel or geography as a reason to stand aloof from a system then move to introduce your own system covering even more territory!! You're absolutely right. It's all just lip service. There's no way it will happen. The point has been made before where the once highly valued West of Scotland cup was the real loser in the merger between Central and Ayrshire teams when the West Superleague was set up. The trophy became less well regarded as the mystique had gone out of it. The same thing would happen with the Scottish if this went through. And the SJFA would never be daft enough to jeopardise that.......or would they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted November 24, 2013 Author Share Posted November 24, 2013 Just to clarify so that this is kept in topic, it would make sense to take the top 7 or 8 from each league. It would make more sense to marry it all up with the lowland league though - at least to me. The current lowland leaguers wouldn't be too happy though if my views prevailed - take 6 from the current East and West Juniors plus 4 from the existing lowland league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbaxters Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 What you need is leagues of 16 in the West. Your current set up is daft anyway. Ok. Let's sort that out first before we think about a National league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Just to clarify so that this is kept in topic, it would make sense to take the top 7 or 8 from each league. It would make more sense to marry it all up with the lowland league though - at least to me. On paper such a system could directly marry-up below the Lowland League, if the Tayside clubs were detached and placed in with the North Juniors? As then Juniors interested in obtaining licenses could move up directly, and potentially relegated clubs could move down directly, to what would be a sort of Lowland League First Division & Lowland League Second Division. That's talking only in highly simplified crude terms, of course, but you get the drift. EDIT: Actually I see in your edited post you mean a sort of Scottish Conference with 12 Juniors and 4 LLs, apologies for confusion. The point has been made before where the once highly valued West of Scotland cup was the real loser in the merger between Central and Ayrshire teams when the West Superleague was set up. The trophy became less well regarded as the mystique had gone out of it. The same thing would happen with the Scottish if this went through. And the SJFA would never be daft enough to jeopardise that.......or would they? But in compensation, presumably a Scottish Junior League would be run directly by Tom Johnston and SJFA? Perhaps for them the Scottish Junior League would be seen as an improved product on the Scottish Junior Cup, as happened with Superleagueisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEWHITEGATES Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Agreed, that would seem rather an odd criteria to base the make-up of a joint league on. Surely you would do it on equitable numbers (7 each), or quality levels (which is always a topic of debate but could be achieved by looking at Junior Cup results or having playoff ties), or having critieria e.g. for facilities. Also, perhaps the poster above is just being brief, but I note he says it is a "National Junior League"... would that not require or justify North involvement? There's also something strange about this... I thought one of Tom Johnstone's biggest criticisms of the Lowland League was its large geographical area? You can hardly cite travel or geography as a reason to stand aloof from a system then move to introduce your own system covering even more territory!! I was quoting the minutes HJ - they do indeed refer to a "National Junior League". Regarding distances between grounds, a trip for Newtongrange to (say) Auchinleck is almost exactly the same (87 miles) as a trip to Carnoustie under the present set-up (86 miles) but I'd be surprised if it happens, especially as there is clearly a potential for some clubs fixtures to cover a much greater distance than that (say Largs against Carnoustie). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I was quoting the minutes HJ - they do indeed refer to a "National Junior League". Thanks. They can hardly call it that without North representation!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patriot1 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Just to clarify so that this is kept in topic, it would make sense to take the top 7 or 8 from each league. It would make more sense to marry it all up with the lowland league though - at least to me. The current lowland leaguers wouldn't be too happy though if my views prevailed - take 6 from the current East and West Juniors plus 4 from the existing lowland league. Why on earth would any teams join from the Lowland League when they have the chance to be promoted to the SPFL? Or are you seriously saying that instead of junior clubs joining the existing pyramid system we should recreate the pyramid system on our terms with a few Lowland League sides? As i said earlier the pyramid is already there, it is for junior clubs to decide whether they want to join it. Of course Tom johnston would rather create his own "national league" as junior clubs joining the Lowland League will be leaving the SJFA thus diluting his power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Suspect the future of the north region would be to hook up as one of the feeders to the Highland League along with or possibly merged with the North Caledonian League rather than feeding into any east/west superleague setup (however it winds up being branded). Personally think it would be better to have a single "Lowland" superleague division with east and west superleagues feeding into it, so the extra traveling is restricted to the clubs that are most able to sustain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 Why on earth would any teams join from the Lowland League when they have the chance to be promoted to the SPFL? Or are you seriously saying that instead of junior clubs joining the existing pyramid system we should recreate the pyramid system on our terms with a few Lowland League sides? As i said earlier the pyramid is already there, it is for junior clubs to decide whether they want to join it. Of course Tom johnston would rather create his own "national league" as junior clubs joining the Lowland League will be leaving the SJFA thus diluting his power. I'm not "seriously suggesting" anything Patriot. Self interest will kick all of this into touch long before a serious suggestion can be made. For a start, if there's a proposal to allocate on an 8:6 split then that is s deliberate attempt to scupper your own plan and grandstand that the Juniors don't want a national league. It will never get through in the West and quite rightly so. Secondly, on the subject of a true lowland league, why would you not just merge the current 3 top flights to create a genuine and inclusive non league structure below the pyramid? Don't worry, I know the answer. Apart from the cries of anguish from the current, glorified EoS league, there would still be an overwhelming bias in favour of the East because that was the starting point for the current lowland league. So the West clubs will bomb the thing anyway I think. The upshot will almost certainly be that clubs will need to "break ranks". And not many will even though that will end participation in the Scottish Cup. Ultimately the Junior grade will grow weaker financially, will struggle to find sponsors, will be treated with disdain by the SFA and may eventually need to form their own infrastructure to engage referees etc and if more amateur clubs follow the EK route then the Juniors will over time fall further in the pecking order. Hey ho ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meddaheroes1973 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Scottish Football Association, Scottish Professional Football League, Highland League, Lowland League, Scottish Junior Football Association, Scottish Amateur Football Association, Scottish Youth Football Association, Scottish Schools Football Association, Scottish Women's Football Association & others. Not to mention all the regions associated with each body. Surely for a small country ALL levels of the game should be governed by one entity. How much money is taken out the game by office bearers & executives from each of these corporate bodies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.M Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I recall this idea being floated as a proposal by the SJFA in the aftermath of the Lowland League debacle. Anyone know whether the proposal has moved forward at all? I know there has been correspondence by the ESJFA to their clubs, but nothing in the West. The split would need to be even ? I can understand the travelling point from teams in the East not being much different but thats not the case in the West where no teams currently travel 90/ 100 miles for a league game ? The West league is already very strong and although some of the games would be attractive to the fans would the clubs benefit financially ? Having spoken with a couple of officials from teams in the West , they are saying the fans would need to be consulted because it would mean a significant rise in travelling expenses should this happen, which I also understand ? From a totally selfish point of view (now living in Bonnyrigg) I would love it but if I still lived in Auchinleck maybe I wouldnt be so keen ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 I suppose there could be a risk of a split within the Junior set up. The West clubs may indeed see little or no advantage to them as a result of change. I understand why they would think like that and it's a reaffirmation for me that the pyramid should have had a lowland East/West split in it anyway. However, in the East, clubs are travelling 60+miles on a reasonably regular basis. Teams like my own or Bo'ness may start to feel "hemmed in" by (understandable) intransigence in the West and a growing footprint from lowland league clubs in the East (who start to hoover up sponsorship and SFA licences). If it's also true that some East teams - particularly in Fife - are keen to see a return to a District set up then that could add to their concerns about the viability of the current structure for top flight clubs in the Lothians. That's without considering the longer term ambition of lower league clubs through our way who are working hard on an integrated community set up and who might best advance that approach by being inside the SFA tent pissing out than vice versa. Stuff to ponder - I doubt there will be much if any short term change though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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