Fallout 4

[Homer Thompson]

Why do you need a mod to remove it, just don't do any settlement building.

I've never understood this idea that it's completely outside the game. The underlying theme if the game is rebuilding the Commonwealth. Each faction wants to do that but in different ways. The fact that you can create settlements to start that rebuilding seems a pretty good fit to me.

If there's a criticism there I would say its that it doesn't go anywhere, it never ends. Of course that can also be a good thing too!

I struggled to get into NV but I didn't really give it much of a chance. If I get a new GFX card I might mod it up and give it another try.

 

 

I think the point is theres no real reason for it, you're just building it up for yourself as the effect it has on the actual game is minimal.

 

And you're right that the game is about rebuilding the Commonwealth. Honestly I like the settlement building and have basically forgot what I'm supposed to be arguing here already. It definitely has a place in the game and when it goes right it's great. Just a shame they didn't take it a bit further - imagine building a string of Brotherhood fortresses across the Commonwealth, or setting up Railroad hideouts, or bringing Institute technology to the surface.

I've heard that the modding scene hasn't really hit its stride yet. Skyrim took a year or so to get going. I've had a look through the Xbox catalogue on my brother's and it's like wading through shite looking for diamonds.

The mods only really get going when the creation kit comes out. That makes it an awful lot easier to change things in the game, make quests etc. Without it, the majority of mods are graphically, either texture/mesh replacements, new items or ENB type effects.

 

I agree with your first part, that would have been amazing.

[SpoonTon]

The main storyline in Fallout 4 is pretty awful. Right from the start I know I have no interest in saving my son - I just want to explore and have fun. And I've been having fun with the game for hundreds of hours. The point is that it's a big, fun sandbox with loads to do. It does rub up against the story and some other aspects of the game, but none of the game's weaknesses stop it from being a great world to explore.

New Vegas on the other hand, the story is brilliant and the world is an intrinsic part of that. Want to go off explore wherever you want from the start? Not a chance, that giant radscorpion will see to that. And the game constantly drives you in particular directions to unfold the narrative world in particular ways. It's a much smaller map and that helps the story work. Fallout 4 wants to be too much to work in that way. So there is an aspect of identity crisis for fallout 4, but that doesn't stop it from being a really cracking game.

[Antti Niemi]

The story in itself isn't necessarily bad, it's just that people don't want to go into a Fallout game as a grieving widow on a quest to find their missing son. They want to explore, piss about and play as their own character. I can have untold hours of quality time in this game, and then I bump up against the main story in some conversation and it's all "WHERE'S MY BABY" and I'm pulled right out of it.

These sorts of games need to have a main story which provides enough leeway for the character to just piss about for hundreds of hours without any sense of urgency hanging over them. (Incidentally something I didn't feel the Witcher 3 got right - what's the point of all these contracts and side quests when Geralt is supposed to be tracking down his missing goddaughter and wouldn't stop to bother with any of that?)

[Homer Thompson]

The story in itself isn't necessarily bad, it's just that people don't want to go into a Fallout game as a grieving widow on a quest to find their missing son. They want to explore, piss about and play as their own character. I can have untold hours of quality time in this game, and then I bump up against the main story in some conversation and it's all "WHERE'S MY BABY" and I'm pulled right out of it.

These sorts of games need to have a main story which provides enough leeway for the character to just piss about for hundreds of hours without any sense of urgency hanging over them. (Incidentally something I didn't feel the Witcher 3 got right - what's the point of all these contracts and side quests when Geralt is supposed to be tracking down his missing goddaughter and wouldn't stop to bother with any of that?)

I dont really get the criticism of the main story either, its basically the same as Fallout 3.

 

I get what you're saying but I cant think of what kind of storyline you could have that wouldnt imply some kind of urgency. By the nature of it being the main storyline its importance automatically dictates the urgency. Anything without urgency wouldnt be important enough for a main storyline.

 

To be honest, I think the leeway you want is there. As you say, you can easily spend hours not doing anything related to the main quest

[SpoonTon]

I dont really get the criticism of the main story either, its basically the same as Fallout 3.

I get what you're saying but I cant think of what kind of storyline you could have that wouldnt imply some kind of urgency. By the nature of it being the main storyline its importance automatically dictates the urgency. Anything without urgency wouldnt be important enough for a main storyline.

To be honest, I think the leeway you want is there. As you say, you can easily spend hours not doing anything related to the main quest

I thought the story was quite weak all the way through. At no point did I really get invested in it (despite absolutely loving the game and really enjoying sections of the main storyline). The family (urgency) aspect was unnecessary. Being frozen in a vault and waking up alone would have been enough of a mystery to get the game started. It's all about exploring and it's greatness is in the sheer amount and variety of locations to discover. It's main storyline should really be something which begins to emerge out of a collection of those experiences. I should care about my murdered wife and kidnapped son - I didn't at any point. It's the wrong type of storyline for the game. That's always been a problem with these games, it was the same with Fallout 3, but this one was even worse.

It hasn't stopped me from loving the game, but I would've loved it even more if it could have gotten a proper handle on its storytelling.

[Antti Niemi]

I didn't play Fallout 3 tbf. Thought Skyrim struck a pretty good balance - the dragons are a threat, yeah, but it's not so urgent that you feel obliged to dash all over the world doing main story quests.

I think 4 really picks up and hits its stride once you've found Shaun. The interplay between the various factions you become entangled in is really great.

[Antti Niemi]

Looked up an alternate start mod on YouTube. The first scenario they used to demonstrate it was you starting off as a fashion designer in Diamond City or something like that. Game loads up - first thing that pops up on screen is a quest objective to 'Find Shaun'. What's the point in that?! If you're going to allow people to make non-Sole Survivor characters you have to carry it all the way through, surely.

Was thinking about how you'd do it and thought you could include the original main character in the game as a companion and progress through the main story that way.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Antti Niemi

[SpoonTon]

I didn't play Fallout 3 tbf. Thought Skyrim struck a pretty good balance - the dragons are a threat, yeah, but it's not so urgent that you feel obliged to dash all over the world doing main story quests.

I think 4 really picks up and hits its stride once you've found Shaun. The interplay between the various factions you become entangled in is really great.

I agree, the balance in Skyrim is much better. Something "urgent" in Solitude could wait until I did some exploring.

New Vegas was great in the sense that it made you really interested in what was going to come next - but it came at the price of being much more restricted in terms of freedom of movement. Slightly different game with Obsidian developing, but they did a great job of creating a world and a story which was totally connected.

Fallout 4 made me feel like an asshole for not caring about Shaun. I really enjoyed sections of the main storyline, but more for the places and set pieces rather than the narrative. And while I can moan about certain things about the game, what it does well more than makes up for it.

Edited July 3, 2016 by SpoonTon

[Homer Thompson]

I thought the story was quite weak all the way through. At no point did I really get invested in it (despite absolutely loving the game and really enjoying sections of the main storyline). The family (urgency) aspect was unnecessary. Being frozen in a vault and waking up alone would have been enough of a mystery to get the game started. It's all about exploring and it's greatness is in the sheer amount and variety of locations to discover. It's main storyline should really be something which begins to emerge out of a collection of those experiences. I should care about my murdered wife and kidnapped son - I didn't at any point. It's the wrong type of storyline for the game. That's always been a problem with these games, it was the same with Fallout 3, but this one was even worse.

It hasn't stopped me from loving the game, but I would've loved it even more if it could have gotten a proper handle on its storytelling.

I wouldnt completely disagree (although I do on the story, I didnt find it particularly weak) there is a balance to be struck between exploration and the story. I guess the problem is, if you go too far the way you've described you make it too difficult for some to actually pick up the main storyline quests. 

Looked up an alternate start mod on YouTube. The first scenario they used to demonstrate it was you starting off as a fashion designer in Diamond City or something like that. Game loads up - first thing that pops up on screen is a quest objective to 'Find Shaun'. What's the point in that?! If you're going to allow people to make non-Sole Survivor characters you have to carry it all the way through, surely.

Was thinking about how you'd do it and thought you could include the original main character in the game as a companion and progress through the main story that way.

Thats maybe a limitation of the modding capabilities right now rather than a conscious choice by the modder.

[forameus]

Is there an argument for 4 not really needing this over-arching story?  I mean, why do you need to start the game out with your entire arc defined within 10-15 minutes of kicking the game off.  The "present-day" stuff was cool, and the entering/leaving the vault scenes were brilliant, but you could have that without the need to tie it into this over-arching story.  Forget the family angle, as it just doesn't work with this game.

 

You enter the vault alone - keep the part where you're a solider from the previous war, maybe even play into that why he's alone.  Rest goes through as normal, and if you really must have the Institute assassin in, have him kill one of the frozen anyway, just not family.  Continues on as before - he wakes up, leaves the vault, but the big difference is that there is no initial questline that demands you find out what happened to your son, meaning you don't have the situation where you're doing anything but that.  The first parts of the game can be about just finding your way in the world, meeting different factions. 

 

Personally I'd have you spend the entire first "half" of the game doing work for the factions.  The game will not really "advance" story wise until you pick a side at the half-way point.  Up to then you're allowed to just explore without having quests pushed on you that are super urgent.  Then once you pick a side, introduce the Institute, which can be where the main story comes in.  Mr Assassin comes back in, and you recognise him, and go to him for answers.  None of those "You killed mah son you baaastard" plots, just a simpler needing answers plotline.  You can kill or save him (because remember when it wasn't all about shooting things in the face and you had a choice?) and that kicks off the main Institute stuff.   You'd lose Shaun being your son, but I don't really think that had much impact anyway.  They're a credible enough entity on their own without that extra detail.  The main quest can then pretty much go the same way from there - you're in the institute thanks to the Railroad/Minutemen, and you perform tasks for both ultimately to make the choice as to which side you're really on. 

 

That way you've got a game that encourages you to explore, not chase down a mawkish family angle, while still retaining an ultimate reason to be there.  The storyline as it stood just felt pretty meh to me, compared to 3 and New Vegas, and inevitably other games.

Edited July 5, 2016 by forameus

[wasted]

Trying to secure the workshop on spectacle island for the railroad but it won't let me use the workshop. Killed, I think, all the mirelurks but it's not happening. I've used the circuit breakers to get the generator on but still nothing. Where am I going wrong?

[Antti Niemi]

Spectacle Island. Haven't the foggiest. One of those settlements I've never gone near. In my first playthroughs I rarely went south at all - the odd excursion into the Glowing Sea or down Quincy way aside - and in my Survival I was based out of Jamaica Plain - a shithole btw, so small - and never really strayed too far from where I needed to go for quests. I've been to most if not all in-game locations, but I barely remember anything down that way at all.

Editing to actually provide something somewhat useful: according to the wiki you need to flip the switch on the boat, then the one in the tower which will chase the mirelurks away. Assume you've done that?

Edited July 5, 2016 by Antti Niemi

[Homer Thompson]

15 hours ago, forameus said:

Is there an argument for 4 not really needing this over-arching story?  I mean, why do you need to start the game out with your entire arc defined within 10-15 minutes of kicking the game off.  The "present-day" stuff was cool, and the entering/leaving the vault scenes were brilliant, but you could have that without the need to tie it into this over-arching story.  Forget the family angle, as it just doesn't work with this game.

 

You enter the vault alone - keep the part where you're a solider from the previous war, maybe even play into that why he's alone.  Rest goes through as normal, and if you really must have the Institute assassin in, have him kill one of the frozen anyway, just not family.  Continues on as before - he wakes up, leaves the vault, but the big difference is that there is no initial questline that demands you find out what happened to your son, meaning you don't have the situation where you're doing anything but that.  The first parts of the game can be about just finding your way in the world, meeting different factions. 

 

Personally I'd have you spend the entire first "half" of the game doing work for the factions.  The game will not really "advance" story wise until you pick a side at the half-way point.  Up to then you're allowed to just explore without having quests pushed on you that are super urgent.  Then once you pick a side, introduce the Institute, which can be where the main story comes in.  Mr Assassin comes back in, and you recognise him, and go to him for answers.  None of those "You killed mah son you baaastard" plots, just a simpler needing answers plotline.  You can kill or save him (because remember when it wasn't all about shooting things in the face and you had a choice?) and that kicks off the main Institute stuff.   You'd lose Shaun being your son, but I don't really think that had much impact anyway.  They're a credible enough entity on their own without that extra detail.  The main quest can then pretty much go the same way from there - you're in the institute thanks to the Railroad/Minutemen, and you perform tasks for both ultimately to make the choice as to which side you're really on. 

 

That way you've got a game that encourages you to explore, not chase down a mawkish family angle, while still retaining an ultimate reason to be there.  The storyline as it stood just felt pretty meh to me, compared to 3 and New Vegas, and inevitably other games.

Its an interesting theory. As I said earlier, I think the danger of that is that people just never find the main quest and give up on the game because theyre just wandering around aimlessly. To be honest, I also think thats a story it would be even hard to get personally invested in.

I dont really get whats so much worse about the story in 4 than 3, to be honest. Its pretty much the same story with your father replaced by your son.

9 hours ago, Antti Niemi said:

Spectacle Island. Haven't the foggiest. One of those settlements I've never gone near. In my first playthroughs I rarely went south at all - the odd excursion into the Glowing Sea or down Quincy way aside - and in my Survival I was based out of Jamaica Plain - a shithole btw, so small - and never really strayed too far from where I needed to go for quests. I've been to most if not all in-game locations, but I barely remember anything down that way at all.

Editing to actually provide something somewhat useful: according to the wiki you need to flip the switch on the boat, then the one in the tower which will chase the mirelurks away. Assume you've done that?

I think thats the missing bit - switching on the tower that gets rid of the mirelurks is that last bit, IIRC

[Homer Thompson]

1.6 update is out on PC now. Main feature seems to be the ExitSave which saves when you quit the game and works in Survival mode

[forameus]

1 hour ago, Mr X said:

Its an interesting theory. As I said earlier, I think the danger of that is that people just never find the main quest and give up on the game because theyre just wandering around aimlessly. To be honest, I also think thats a story it would be even hard to get personally invested in.

I dont really get whats so much worse about the story in 4 than 3, to be honest. Its pretty much the same story with your father replaced by your son.

Maybe it's just purely down to 4 being bigger and outgrowing the story.  Playing 3 seemed like it had the story tightly woven through everything, whereas 4 is a bit looser, and you have way, way more to do.  Plus, unless I'm remembering wrongly, with 3 wasn't it just that your father disappeared one day out of the vault?  It's similar, but I'd say seeing your son stolen and wife killed creates a bit more urgency.  You mention not getting personally invested, but I didn't find myself that invested in the way they told 4's story.  Might be due to the relatively unfocused nature of having such a huge open world, but I don't think they did everything they could to really get the player hooked.  Might be a personal thing though.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Fallout 4 is bad in any way.  If I had to describe it any way, it'd probably be frustrating.  Bethesda could have made the game of a generation.  They did so much right, but there's a few glaring things that stop it reaching those heights.  It's a great game that should have been better.

[Homer Thompson]

3 hours ago, forameus said:

Maybe it's just purely down to 4 being bigger and outgrowing the story.  Playing 3 seemed like it had the story tightly woven through everything, whereas 4 is a bit looser, and you have way, way more to do.  Plus, unless I'm remembering wrongly, with 3 wasn't it just that your father disappeared one day out of the vault?  It's similar, but I'd say seeing your son stolen and wife killed creates a bit more urgency.  You mention not getting personally invested, but I didn't find myself that invested in the way they told 4's story.  Might be due to the relatively unfocused nature of having such a huge open world, but I don't think they did everything they could to really get the player hooked.  Might be a personal thing though.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Fallout 4 is bad in any way.  If I had to describe it any way, it'd probably be frustrating.  Bethesda could have made the game of a generation.  They did so much right, but there's a few glaring things that stop it reaching those heights.  It's a great game that should have been better.

I dont think theres any doubt that the level of immersion is a personal thing. I guess my point was that less people would feel invested in a story with no personal attachment than were invested in the current story.

In other news, Ive started playing around with the new DLC stuff. Its nothing groundbreaking but I had fun building some conveyors, a sorter and ammo manufacturer. Quite looking forward to expand it into a manufacturing plant!

I also saw a mod last night that expands Goodneighbour. Adds player houses and some new characters with quests.

[SpoonTon]

I think it's probably right that the main story line is in the game to try to get those who will be a bit less invested to get hooked on something. I'm not sure whether it's the correct decision or not; but it, in this case at least, hampers the game for those who will be fully invested in exploring this world. Not everyone will want to put 150+ hours into the game, so they obviously have to make a decision on how to sell the game to those who will play less than 50 hours. The "find the son" line gives that impetus, but I think its urgency fundamentally rubs up against what makes it such a great game. As said above, even just dropping this angle would have really improved the overarching narrative, but it does leave the problem of how to hook those looking for a shorter experience. My instinct is that the set-pieces of the main story line (Concord and the Deathclaw, the arrival of the Brotherhood of Steel, etc.) would be enough to do that - they just need to be knitted together in a clear enough way. And those who want to be in the world for longer will know when to ignore a certain quest without feeling a bit off for not caring about finding their son. I think there would have been a far more interesting story in simply discovering what had happened to the world and the type of role you could play in it as a pre-war soldier. 

[wasted]

8 hours ago, Mr X said:

 

I think thats the missing bit - switching on the tower that gets rid of the mirelurks is that last bit, IIRC

Yeah I had already killed the mirelurks on a previous visit for the bobble head. Flicked the breaker on the boat, which turns on the lights, do the same in the little bit by the tower and it comes up saying it's not functional. At a total loss 

[Homer Thompson]

50 minutes ago, wasted said:

Yeah I had already killed the mirelurks on a previous visit for the bobble head. Flicked the breaker on the boat, which turns on the lights, do the same in the little bit by the tower and it comes up saying it's not functional. At a total loss 

Definitely think you've missed a bit then. Look it up on the Fallout wiki

[Jack Burton]

I've really enjoyed Fallout 4 and sunk a lot of hours into but it's not as good as I thought it would be.

The dialogue has regressed to "yes", "sarcastic answer" or "speak as shroud". There is no point in having ten points in one of the skills like science as there are very few speech checks or other options to solve issues using your skills which was present in fallout 3 and New Vegas. The majority of quests are just fetch quests and there aren't multiple ways to finish quests. The vaults have also been a big disappointment compared to the previous games and the crazy, daft stuff that was in the other games has been dialled down.

I still really enjoy exploring the Wasteland and the settlement stuff is ok but there isn't really any point to it. I would have liked to have seen less focus on it with the DLC.