Bitcoin/cryptocurrency thread

[parsforlife]

I’m so smart, you guys just don’t get crypto .

f**k me, that’s the defined theory of why people get dragged into conspiracy theories and scams.

[gaz5]

1 minute ago, ICTChris said:

I am interested to know.

OK, fair enough.

Full disclosure, I don't really hold for long term in Crypto (my long term portfolio is all in equities), but I do hold a couple of small positions in projects that I think have real world utility. They aren't the most popular projects in the world, for many reasons, but I can use them to give you a couple of examples:

VeChain: Technically, they are a BaaS (Blockchain as a Service) provider, which allows them to help large enterprises build their solutions on Blockchain. They have various offerings in supply chain management that I think is where their utility is. For example, they're now partnered with BMW where details of every car are stored on blockchain and then managed there throughout the life of the vehicle (from maintenance, to parts, to shipping, to service records etc.) so none of it can be faked. They've provided other solutions (like in Cyprus they managed the Covid Vaccine rollout from factory to patient using VeChain blockchain).

XRP: On Demand Liquidity / Liquidity Hub. My background is in Financial Services and I've dealt with Swift as a result for years. Also the crazy Nostro/Vostro setup where banks have huge amounts of liquidity sitting around payment corridors just in case it needs to be used to settle. XRP and ODL takes away that Nostro/Vostro requirement by allowing you to send payment that settles in seconds, anywhere in the world (even the places that don't have banks with established payment corridors), for pennies. There are loads of other benefits of XRP and the XPR Ledger over Swift (which is just a messaging system), but dont want to bore you.

There's two examples. Quant would be another one to look into.

There are over 11,000 projects in Crypto these days and probably 10,800 of those are complete trash. Utter nonsense that provides no benefit or solves any real world problem and they really all should die (hopefully many will when BTC goes to 20k or lower).

But at the same time there are at least a few interesting projects, with real world value propositions, despite the naysayers and their "INTANGIBLE!!!!!" outlook.

[gaz5]

7 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

I’m so smart, you guys just don’t get crypto .

f**k me, that’s the defined theory of why people get dragged into conspiracy theories and scams.

If you're talking about me, for the nine millionth time IM NOT A CRYPTO MAXI, I'M A MARKETS GUY WHO HAPPENS TO ALSO TRADE CRYPTO. Trade being the operative word. I hold very, very little for longer than a day.

I'm answering market questions, from people who think markets operate differently because it's an asset class they don't like. It's fine not to like it, I just said to ICTChris that 95% of Crypto is complete trash. I don't like a lot of it either.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

35 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

I’m so smart, you guys just don’t get crypto .

f**k me, that’s the defined theory of why people get dragged into conspiracy theories and scams.

That's true but if that's aimed at Gaz then it's quite a big self own on your part. 

He's quite clearly very capable at setting out his argument coherently, just because it's confusing to people like me and a lot goes over my head it doesn't mean it's patronising. He's doing the complete opposite of a "trust me guys" argument. 

[gaz5]

That is completely disingenious.
How did you keep a straight face typing that total misrepresentation of peoples views on here? [emoji23]

It's funny watching you post stuff like this, when everyone knows you're the biggest troll on P&B whose entire MO is to deliberately misrepresent peoples views. Couldn't mark your brass neck with a blowtorch. [emoji1787].

But you'll forgive me or anyone else in here not taking advice on trading, on any market, from a guy who made an arse of himself the other day when he made it clear he didn't even know where the ticker was on a stock chart. Kinda 101 shit that. [emoji1787]

You do make me laugh with your "putting food on the table" rhetoric though, another one of your straw men, trying to paint someone who demonstrably knows more than you on this topic as some sort of degenerate who is going to lose it all for no other reason than a. you can't read to know why that won't happen and b. you have no intelligent answer to the actual content of anything they post.

You clearly suffer from rage filled insecurity at even the thought that someone, anyone, could conceivably know more than you about a specific topic based on actual experience.

I actually pity you a little. "I can't do it so clearly no one can and I won't even listen or respond to any actual content they post because it's lies, must be because I can't do it".

But if that's what you need to tell yourself to make yourself feel better, you carry on old chap. Happy to take it on the chin to keep you level. My contribution to care in the community. [emoji106]

Right, just closed my last trade of the week so off to do my weekly cap gains taxes. [emoji6]

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I am interested to know.

The one example I’ve found in real life was”CitizenAp” a ticketing App which used a blockchain to store my ticket purchase which could then allow the app to present the QR code on the door. I had to download their App and then there was a delay as ticket sale was written to secure tamper proof distributed registry as opposed to a simple database

Given that this was for a student production in a 200 seat venue it’s unclear if there’s anything the blockchain added to the process that simply trusting EventBrite to deliver it couldn’t have.

I’ve never had to use the app again but CitizenTicket still exist as a company so someone must be using it. You can read their blockchain sales pitch here.

https://www.citizenticket.co.uk/product/

To me blockchain still seems like a clever solution that has yet to find it’s problem

[gaz5]

Blimey. You feel better for getting that off your chest? [emoji23]

[emoji1787][emoji1787]

I have no answer to points raised, again, so better deflect as usual

It's fun (and fairly easy) running rings round you, what can I say.

[Zetterlund]

Crypto definitely has an image problem from the outside, which it will struggle to shake off until the useless 98% of coins are in the bin.

Dogecoin embodies the issue for me but there are countless others. A worthless coin with an infinitely increasing supply, the original use case of which was basically the equivalent of P&B greenies to give out on 4chan. Whenever there's a big correction in the wider market I don't know why coins like this don't have an emperor's new clothes moment.

On the other hand, any commentator who claims the industry adds no value can be immediately dismissed as uninformed and/or biased. Some of the largest companies in the world are investing in blockchain technology and jobs in the industry are growing 100's of % per year. I'm pretty sure they can't all be wrong.

[gaz5]

The one example I’ve found in real life was”CitizenAp” a ticketing App which used a blockchain to store my ticket purchase which could then allow the app to present the QR code on the door. I had to download their App and then there was a delay as ticket sale was written to secure tamper proof distributed registry as opposed to a simple database

Given that this was for a student production in a 200 seat venue it’s unclear if there’s anything the blockchain added to the process that simply trusting EventBrite to deliver it couldn’t have.

I’ve never had to use the app again but CitizenTicket still exist as a company so someone must be using it. You can read their blockchain sales pitch here.

https://www.citizenticket.co.uk/product/

To me blockchain still seems like a clever solution that has yet to find it’s problem

I've seen a few projects attempting similar things (a lot of the fan token projects have similar ideas).

It's one of the ideas for NFT's that longer term (once the solutions mature sufficiently) I could actually see some merit in: unique ticketing for events that can't be counterfeit or scalped. I could see why that would be an improvement on current ticketing systems, but if it did find adoption it'll probably take a decade or more, at least.

There are (a huge minority) of projects that do offer at least some kind of utility like this, but I agree with you. They're essentially all theoretical solutions to problems people didn't really know (or still don't) they had and outside of the crypto sphere itself there's only a few companies dipping their toe in the water (like BMW I mentioned above using VeChain for supply chain/asset management).

And a lot of them are Blockchain based solutions that dont actually add any value over and above the same non Blockchain version so make little sense.

It's the main reason I never argue that crypto is anything other than a speculative market, even if a very small number of the projects in it have some potential longer term merit.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Zetterlund said:

Crypto definitely has an image problem from the outside, which it will struggle to shake off until the useless 98% of coins are in the bin.

Dogecoin embodies the issue for me but there are countless others. A worthless coin with an infinitely increasing supply, the original use case of which was basically the equivalent of P&B greenies to give out on 4chan. Whenever there's a big correction in the wider market I don't know why coins like this don't have an emperor's new clothes moment.

On the other hand, any commentator who claims the industry adds no value can be immediately dismissed as uninformed and/or biased. Some of the largest companies in the world are investing in blockchain technology and jobs in the industry are growing 100's of % per year. I'm pretty sure they can't all be wrong.

What value does the industry add?

[DiegoDiego]

There are also some good uses of blockchain as a back end for international money transfer. As someone who's been stung both by Western Union's 7% take and two day wait, and a flat €25 fee for transferring cash between two EU countries, I can see the benefit in almost instantaneous transactions with negligible fees.

I definitely see the "solution in search of a problem" argument, but it's still relatively new technology. In the late eighties Apple were advertising home computers by showing one in a kitchen displaying recipes. That's certainly no better than buying a recipe book, but here we are thirty-five years later and the things are indispensabile.

The sharpest minds in finance and computer science are migrating to blockchain projects. It's either going to produce some cool new shizz or be the biggest waste of intellectual capital since Pol Pot.

[Zetterlund]

3 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

What value does the industry add?

How does one quantify it? How much value does the fast food industry add, or discount clothing stores, or beauty salons etc to pick a few random examples. If the product is something people want and it employs a workforce then what's the issue?

Blockchain is essentially a new branch of software development which didn't exist a few years ago. It has created demand for a new generation of highly skilled (and highly paid) software engineers, along the way somehow making programming seem 'cool' and encouraging entrepreneurship.

[Detournement]

21 hours ago, gaz5 said:

 

Taking liquidity from retail is the entire point of ALL markets. ALL markets are speculative.

That isn't true at all.

[beefybake]

8 hours ago, gaz5 said:

It's fun (and fairly easy) running rings round you, what can I say.

Only in your own mind.

This, if you but knew it, fairly describes you and your underlying attitudes....

".....Taking liquidity from retail is the entire point of ALL markets. ALL markets are speculative. ...."

You're a trader, seemingly technically proficient, but pretty much just a trader nevertheless.

No real wider view of life, no matter that you sort of know the words about investing, and certainly not what it represents.

The traders I've seen, who've been at it a while, and financially successfully , all seem to have something missing as people.

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by beefybake

[gaz5]

That isn't true at all.

It 100% is.

But feel free to explain why it's not true that markets exist to allow large institutions to grab liquidity from other institutions or smaller retail traders, rather than just say "trust me".

Saying something is so, offering zero detail behind it, is not a valid argument in any context.

Given I've gone into great detail to explain how and why it is, that's the least you can do.

So go ahead, let's debate the finer details of how and why markets operate, I'm game.....

[gaz5]

Only in your own mind.
This, if you but knew it, fairly describes you and your underlying attitudes....
".....Taking liquidity from retail is the entire point of ALL markets. ALL markets are speculative. ...."
You're a trader, seemingly technically proficient, but pretty much just a trader nevertheless.
No real wider view of life, no matter that you sort of know the words about investing, and certainly not what it represents.
The traders I've seen, who've been at it a while, and financially successfully , all seem to have something missing as people.
 

I've been answering points about trading and market operations. The post you have quoted was in response to the bold claim that an all time market high was "fake". Local highs (that this would be for an investment outlook) are irrelevant for investment outlook, so the question was a trading one.

You can't have a pop at someone, well not to be taken seriously, for answering a question about short term trading outlooks by saying "that's not investing". I know it's not, neither was the question being answered.

If you can't separate the two in your mind and realise I'm talking about one and not the other based on the conversation, I can't help you.

Your argument here is basically "those are not oranges and you're an idiot for saying they are" when the entire time I've been talking about apples.

I've already told you, several times, my long term investments are DCA monthly in ETF's through my ISA and the time outlook for those is such I don't need to worry about them.

My trading account is separate to my overall portfolio and (after tax) what I essentially fund most of my £20k annual allowance from.

I'm sure none of those other traders care what you think of them as a person any more than I do. [emoji846] That's an odd comment, to say the least. Not that I care what type of person anyone thinks I am outside of those closest to me, I'm not a social butterfly.

I do find it funny though that you've assigned me a label that I know nothing about "investing" or what is represents. That's a chortle. I've been an investor for 20 years, worked in financial services (currently an investment bank) for my entire adult life and I've done rather well out of the long term investing.

Trading is a more recent thing for me, having never had the time previously. I've only been doing it about 2 years, 18 months seriously, having found 40 hours in my week when I gave up being involved in football.

[Detournement]

Forgetting other kinds of markets the purpose of joint stock companies is not to transfer wealth from retail to institutional investors.

[Loonytoons]

Saying something is so, offering zero detail behind it, is not a valid argument in any context.

Yes it is.

[IrishBhoy]

Guy in my work who was always boasting about how much money he was making through crypto, while BTC and ETH were rising around this time last year, is now getting upset at people asking him how he’s getting on with the prices dropping lower than what they were a year ago. His expert advice to anyone that asks him is ‘just keep buying, it’s going to go up again’. 

[Zetterlund]

28 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

When you have to scrape the barrel for examples of some of the worst companies in order to provide a false equivalency with crypto, you really need to take a step back and think about things a bit more.

Why not compare the benefits to society of the food and clothing industry in general compared to crypto in general?

I suspect you'd struggle there, which presumably is why you've engaged in barrel scraping arguments.

Not sure what you're getting at here tbh. They were completely random examples of everyday businesses. My point was simply to ask how value to society is measured.

Presumably since you describe them as "some of the worst companies" you fail to see what value they add to society too. But they employ huge numbers of people and provide customers with goods & services that they want. 

In crypto/blockchain, clearly many companies see a potential benefit to their business, whether it's to improve productivity/efficiency, security etc, and are investing & creating jobs to achieve this.

Pundits trying to delegitimize the industry by saying it adds no value need to back it up with something, otherwise it comes across as "I don't understand it therefore it's bad".