Lowland League comparison

[mancinirules]

Oooo! Sorry, but this ended up a wee bit long!

And full of pompous nonsense like "positively antediluvian" when you just meant old-fashioned. If you must insist on using words like ensconce at least spell them correctly. Although I do love the reference to squaky-bum time! As far as using "stadia" goes, I thought we'd finally accepted that as we now speak English not Latin, we say stadiums, just as we say sq(e)aky bums, not squ(e)aky ba.

[LongTimeLurker]

In English would it not be football grounds? There isn't going to be any resolution any time soon to the main arguments that broke out in this thread, so people are just going to have to deal with it being a recurring talking point on here in the same sort of way that SFL3 fans used to have a pinned pyramid thread to usher the people they viewed as being nutters into who wanted to talk about why clubs like Spartans and Cove Rangers couldn't be promoted into the national divisions.

It's quite amusing watching fans of clubs like East Stirling, Montrose and Queen's Park slowly coming to terms with what is now unfolding and some of the intellectual contortions (hope manicinirules won't disapprove of that phrase) that certain posters come up with to try to convince themselves that the concept of teams being promoted from regional divisions into the national ones and the reverse on relegation is inevitably going to fail in a Scottish context.

The only thing I think some people on here don't get yet is that pyramid inherently means everything. You don't have a pyramid without the junior clubs being involved and that's why the absence of certain clubs from the LL is going to lead to questions being asked on an ongoing basis about whether some sort of wider restructure is needed to do away with the "positively antediluvian"/old-fashioned junior vs senior divide once and for all.

[newcastle broon]

In English would it not be football grounds? There isn't going to be any resolution any time soon to the main arguments that broke out in this thread, so people are just going to have to deal with it being a recurring talking point on here in the same sort of way that SFL3 fans used to have a pinned pyramid thread to usher the people they viewed as being nutters into who wanted to talk about why clubs like Spartans and Cove Rangers couldn't be promoted into the national divisions. It's quite amusing watching fans of clubs like East Stirling, Montrose and Queen's Park slowly coming to terms with what is now unfolding and some of the intellectual contortions (hope manicinirules won't disapprove of that phrase) that certain posters come up with to try to convince themselves that the concept of teams being promoted from regional divisions into the national ones and the reverse on relegation is inevitably going to fail in a Scottish context. The only thing I think some people on here don't get yet is that pyramid inherently means everything. You don't have a pyramid without the junior clubs being involved and that's why the absence of certain clubs from the LL is going to lead to questions being asked on an ongoing basis about whether some sort of wider restructure is needed to do away with the "positively antediluvian"/old-fashioned junior vs senior divide once and for all.

**sighs**

Pyramid will exist juniors or not !!

Yet another positive post for the LL from ye.

Are yer fingers no getting sore typing same old same old.

[WaffenThinMint]

- IG's well-known (jokingly, if sometimes at his/her expense) for overestimating crowds.

Most famously at Lossiemouth? in the Scottish Cup a few years ago...

... where the number of Talbot fans IG claimed had travelled up by supporters bus was actually (considerably?) greater than the total published attendance.

Back that up my friend!

HJ probably has far better things to do on a Saturday than go through your back posts. He's relying on those on this thread taking him on trust.

So who do we believe? One of the few members of the P&B forum with a reputation for sticking to the facts over emotive posting, or an attention whoring Talbot-when-they're-winning troll?

Hardly needs an answer, does it?

[LongTimeLurker]

**sighs** Pyramid will exist juniors or not !! Yet another positive post for the LL from ye. Are yer fingers no getting sore typing same old same old.

The senior grade would exist under those circumstances in much the same way it has for over a century with the minor innovation of ending the bizarre anachronism of there being no pro/rel between the national divisions and the HL/EoS/SoS level, but not a pyramid as the concept is understood pretty much everywhere else in Europe. People associated with the Highland League often talk about forming a "progressive" league structure rather than a pyramid league structure because they understand the difference on that.

[TFW]

HJ probably has far better things to do on a Saturday than go through your back posts. He's relying on those on this thread taking him on trust.

So who do we believe? One of the few members of the P&B forum with a reputation for sticking to the facts over emotive posting, or an attention whoring Talbot-when-they're-winning troll?

Hardly needs an answer, does it?

I do like that!

Lossiemouth vs Talbot had a crowd of 697. Their normal attendance was about 80 or 90. There were a good few interested folk from all over Morayshire there as neutrals, and the crowd was probably swelled by a few more than normal home fans. Talbot had about 400 there which is a very reasonable turn out for such a long trip - but it was the senior Scottish Cup, and only our second ever entry in it, so you'd expect a decent following.

Isabel does wax lyrical about crowd sizes, bless him, and it's a constant source of amusement to Talbot fans as well as the wider fitba community!

The Threave game had a decent crowd, but the opposition were hardly likely to draw the crowds in that other bigger non league teams would have. Think it's fair to say the vast majority of fans expected the team to go through, and handsomely, hence the lower turn out. If we'd drawn Linlithgow in the Cup there's have been between 1500 and 2000 there. I expect there'll probably be a decent turn out against St Cuthberts, but the likelihood is that it won't be huge. South of Scotland League sides just don't have the aura of other non league sides.

Crowds certainly aren't what they used to be in all grades of the game. We do okay, Isabel just pines for the days of bings and 5,000 crowds. Don't we all though?

[Grim O'Grady]

The senior grade would exist under those circumstances in much the same way it has for over a century with the minor innovation of ending the bizarre anachronism of there being no pro/rel between the national divisions and the HL/EoS/SoS level, but not a pyramid as the concept is understood pretty much everywhere else in Europe. People associated with the Highland League often talk about forming a "progressive" league structure rather than a pyramid league structure because they understand the difference on that.

& Lurk calls it a minor innovation. If anyone was unsure of his stance/opposition to the pyramid/progression of Scottish football they can be under no illusion now.

Grimbo

[Simplistic]

My tuppence having been involved in both set ups.

Junior football has better supported teams and more money

Senior football is Evette's run and the clubs have a more long term out look

The standard of play is largely irrelevant. As is the point with this whole thread, you can't really compare clubs who don't play against each other. (top Junior sides playing mid table senior non league sides in the Scottish cup isn't a good comparison either)

For me Junior teams should not be given any SFA benefits while not wanting anything to do with the SFA.

Also Isa is one of the worst posters on here, proper villager mentality. I'd rather read all of Newkie's posts.......!!!!

[LongTimeLurker]

& Lurk calls it a minor innovation. If anyone was unsure of his stance/opposition to the pyramid/progression of Scottish football they can be under no illusion now.

Grimbo

The usual suspects are still not grasping the difference between a revamp to the senior grade and a pyramid. I occasionally go onto the Fitba North forum and it is interesting to see how the HL mentality differs from the LL one on this. I saw a reference to "the pyramid of doom" on a Lossiemouth vs Culter thread yesterday based on what would happen in future if a club like Culter beat a club like Lossiemouth over two games in a pro/rel playoff context.

Fans and officials of weaker HL clubs seem to grasp that a "pyramid" being implemented could easily mean that their club would wind up being part of the north region juniors or North Caledonian league rather than the HL in the years ahead, which is why some of them used to prefer the "progressive league structure" terminology, which revolves around a revamp of the senior grade with no junior or NCL involvement.

What the SFA have been pushing for in recent times has been an all-encompassing pyramid rather than a "progressive league structure", so this whole concept of the SJFA not being part of what is unfolding is a bogus one. Tom Johnstone has been part of the pyramid working party and the mechanism for future pro/rel between the HL/LL professional board level and the EoS/SoS/juniors community board level has been in the proposal documents that have circulated.

[newcastle broon]

My tuppence having been involved in both set ups.Junior football has better supported teams and more moneySenior football is Evette's run and the clubs have a more long term out lookThe standard of play is largely irrelevant. As is the point with this whole thread, you can't really compare clubs who don't play against each other. (top Junior sides playing mid table senior non league sides in the Scottish cup isn't a good comparison either)For me Junior teams should not be given any SFA benefits while not wanting anything to do with the SFA.Also Isa is one of the worst posters on here, proper villager mentality. I'd rather read all of Newkie's posts.......!!!!

So why then on the 1st page have you compared the LL to the English conference north ?

You disappeared after that,I wonder why

You keep reading my posts kind sir

[Guest]

To be fair Isa you do get a bit carried away about crowds. Remember you waxing lyrical about the massive Talbot support only for the crowd figure in the Senior Scottish against Threave to number round the 700 mark which was lower than the other junior clubs got.

Oh, I forgot that official crowds printed in newspapers are always spot on! Silly me! Would you agree that four buses would equate to 200?

[Aubrey Maturin]

Oh, I forgot that official crowds printed in newspapers are always spot on! Silly me! Would you agree that four buses would equate to 200?

With all due respect you have been repeatedly ridiculed for your bizarre calculations in respect of attendances. If they used your calculations for wildlife then several creatures wouldn't be on the endangered list that's for sure.

No four buses would equate to four buses. You just can't help exaggerating Isa

[HTG]

For me Junior teams should not be given any SFA benefits while not wanting anything to do with the SFA.

The Juniors are very much part of the SFA. The SJFA is directly affiliated. They are not part of the league structure driven by the SPFL (yet) which is where the LL and HL fit in. Thankfully progressive clubs wherever they sit within Scottish football are not constrained by the simplistic views of the supporters of a dozen non league teams.

[Cicero]

The Juniors are very much part of the SFA. The SJFA is directly affiliated. They are not part of the league structure driven by the SPFL (yet) which is where the LL and HL fit in. Thankfully progressive clubs wherever they sit within Scottish football are not constrained by the simplistic views of the supporters of a dozen non league teams.

I thought the Lowland League was an initiative driven by the SFA, no?

[LongTimeLurker]

The SJFA is an integral part of the SFA. They are not rival feuding organisations. The SFA's pyramid working party contained representatives from the HL, EoS and SoS leagues and Tom Johnstone from the SJFA.

[Cicero]

The SJFA is an integral part of the SFA. They are not rival feuding organisations. The SFA's pyramid working party contained representatives from the HL, EoS and SoS leagues and Tom Johnstone from the SJFA.

Sorry, my fat fingers and touch screen don't go together. I didn't mean to red you I meant to press quote and hit red instead.

What you say is true which makes you wonder why there wasn't more of a junior dictate on way things turned out. Then the Tom Johnstone floats the idea of the Junior version of the LL.

[Guest]

With all due respect you have been repeatedly ridiculed for your bizarre calculations in respect of attendances. If they used your calculations for wildlife then several creatures wouldn't be on the endangered list that's for sure.

No four buses would equate to four buses. You just can't help exaggerating Isa

Are you saying that it's an exaggeration that four 50 seater busses would equate to 200 fans,? My god talk about splitting hairs. Whether my rantings on here are exaggerated or not, what is true is that Talbot have one of the largest travelling supports in non league football, of that there is no doubt. The comment was made in response to a LL fan stating they wouldn't want Talbot in the LL, therefore if Talbot take four supporters busses to an away fixture it would be safe to assume at least 200 fans, not including the many who travel by car. No LL club would turn their nose up to that type of away support. Oh and the Lossiemouth estimate wasn't mine, I just agreed and repeated it.

[mancinirules]

Are you saying that it's an exaggeration that four 50 seater buses would equate to 200 fans,? My god, talk about splitting hairs.

Hi Isabel. I think the point was that the buses would not necessarily be full - sorry to split hairs even more finely. But it has been interesting that the saner elements from the Juniors forum seem to have little faith in your apparently legendary crowd sizing guesstimates, so you may be advised to park that one for a while - along with your buses.

[LongTimeLurker]

What you say is true which makes you wonder why there wasn't more of a junior dictate on way things turned out. Then the Tom Johnstone floats the idea of the Junior version of the LL.

The junior agenda appears to be to provide a way for clubs to progress that want to (e.g. Banks O'Dee and maybe down the road Clydebank if they ever get viable ground sorted out) but keep the grade intact for the most part. The flip side of that is that there is a severe aversion among some people in non-league senior circles (especially up north in HL circles) to the idea of ever merging into the juniors in a way that would bring the HL and east and west junior superleagues onto the same level with the junior cup as a shared flagship competition. What the blazers came up with was a way for them to all keep their little fiefdoms intact, while creating the appearance of an all-encompassing pyramid. Initially not much will change but give it a decade or two and a younger generation getting involved in running clubs and interesting things may start to happen.

[Cicero]

The junior agenda appears to be to provide a way for clubs to progress that want to (e.g. Banks O'Dee and maybe down the road Clydebank if they ever get viable ground sorted out) but keep the grade intact for the most part. The flip side of that is that there is a severe aversion among some people in non-league senior circles (especially up north in HL circles) to the idea of ever merging into the juniors in a way that would bring the HL and east and west junior superleagues onto the same level with the junior cup as a shared flagship competition. What the blazers came up with was a way for them to all keep their little fiefdoms intact, while creating the appearance of an all-encompassing pyramid. Initially not much will change but give it a decade or two and a younger generation getting involved in running clubs and interesting things may start to happen.

Just who are the blazers that you talk about?

I thought that the people behind the scenes were on the whole footballing people who give up their free time to help run the game unpaid. Which fiefdoms were kept intact and for what reason?

I know Tom Johnstone gets a salary and his position had been retained but who else?