Lowland League comparison

[LongTimeLurker]

The name "pyramid working group" suggests that the SFA has something else in mind long term. The litmus test will be whether Linlithgow Rose and Auchinleck Talbot get their bronze level licenses and full SFA memberships over the next couple of seasons.

[Cicero]

I hope they don't while they are still operating in an alternative set up.

[LongTimeLurker]

The plan appears to be that EoS, SoS and juniors clubs have to participate in club licensing to be eligible for the pro/rel playoffs into the LL. All the SJFA have to do is negotiate that participation in those playoffs by their clubs is not mandatory and the junior grade gets to stay largely intact in the short to medium terms, clubs like Linlithgow Rose and Auchinleck Talbot get into the Scottish Cup, while the SFA can claim to have a functioning pyramid.

[TFW]

Or make the status quo unattractive. Take away the Scottish Cup places.

Let them stay in their own leagues and let them apply when their ready. Perhaps to one of the feeder leagues when they get formalised. Get the feeder leagues in place and only take applications from clubs involved in those set ups. If they only want to join the set up on their own terms, then sorry no. We will progress and succeed without them.

I'm afraid you are sadly deluded about the Junior game. Join one of the feeder leagues? Do me a favour....

Enjoy your small gates, you'l not get the 400 plus gates without Talbot or Linlithgow coming to Raydale, that's the reality.

As for wishing clubs not to get their grounds up to standard because they don't want to join the current set up has to be the single most idiotic statement I've seen in the debate so far.

[Cicero]

I'm afraid you are sadly deluded about the Junior game. Join one of the feeder leagues? Do me a favour....

Enjoy your small gates, you'l not get the 400 plus gates without Talbot or Linlithgow coming to Raydale, that's the reality.

As for wishing clubs not to get their grounds up to standard because they don't want to join the current set up has to be the single most idiotic statement I've seen in the debate so far.

Who said anything about clubs not to get their grounds up to standard? And you accuse me of making an idiotic statement.

Clubs can bring their grounds up to standard if they wish. What I do object to is getting membership of the SFA just to gain financially from the Scottish Cup while not participating in SFA backed system.

We are thriving without your 400 plus gates and will only go from strength to strength. Enjoy looking in while you stagnate.

[Cicero]

I'm afraid you are sadly deluded about the Junior game. Join one of the feeder leagues? Do me a favour....

Enjoy your small gates, you'l not get the 400 plus gates without Talbot or Linlithgow coming to Raydale, that's the reality.

As for wishing clubs not to get their grounds up to standard because they don't want to join the current set up has to be the single most idiotic statement I've seen in the debate so far.

I really should learn to let go but the arrogance of this post is just shining through.

He accuses me about being deluded about the junior game when he implies that they are too big to join any feeder league into the Lowland League if the ever deign to decide to join us, Who do they think they are?

The rest of the juniors may kowtow to them but if they think that we are going to be swayed by the promise of 400 away to our grounds, then they are sadly mistaken.

[WaffenThinMint]

Well then no one is forcing you to move, play in your own set up and the leave the financial reward of the (SFA )Scottish Cup to the clubs who want to stay in the SFA system.

Stay where you are and gives us peace. We are fed up about certain posters coming on here and saying our league lacks credibility without the likes of them.

As one that has been an active member of the Juniors section for long enough, my suggestion is to stick the usual suspects on ignore as they have no true intentions of any serious discussion on any Lowland League topic, only looking for "bites" like five year olds on Facebook. At least now you are getting to see what the decent posters over there like RobRoyGuy have to put up with.

Enjoy your small gates, you'l not get the 400 plus gates without Talbot or Linlithgow coming to Raydale, that's the reality.

Gretna were getting over 400 over the summer just for friendlies in a tournament, that's the reality.

Considering this week there's been Junior clubs reporting games with only seven going through the gate on a dry Saturday afternoon (FFS, even Civil Service Strollers manage better), the LL needs no lectures on attendances from those that apart from the perennial trophy winners find spectators melting like snow off a dyke.

[Franky Frankopolous]

Judging by the comments on this thread (wonder why I started it!!) I'm glad I missed the Junior Cup Final .Would love to bang everyones heads together and have 3 regional Leagues outwith whatever the League system calls itself. Three team play off at end of season and promotion. Also want an FA Trophy type of cup tournament for all clubs. Clubs will only get better with more competitive games. Super Leagues have shown this and so will the LL.

[HTG]

Who said anything about clubs not to get their grounds up to standard? And you accuse me of making an idiotic statement.

Clubs can bring their grounds up to standard if they wish. What I do object to is getting membership of the SFA just to gain financially from the Scottish Cup while not participating in SFA backed system.

We are thriving without your 400 plus gates and will only go from strength to strength. Enjoy looking in while you stagnate.

Your whole premise is underpinned by an "if you're not fast you're last" approach. My club will hopefully get its bronze licence and if it sticks in the craw of posters like you then so much the better. Is it not the case that for LL entry this year you only had to be working towards licence by 2015 or 2016?

I'm not convinced that any further applications will need to flow through a feeder league just because the EoS was ready to roll with a no-brainer of a move for them. If 12, 16 or 20 Junior teams applied for entry next season they could opt to run 2 parallel leagues with a similar number in each. The winners could play off with the HFL winners and the SPFL bottom club for a place in SPFL2 and at the end of the parallel leagues season they could "promote" the top 6 or 8 from each into the Lowland Premier for want of better.

That might sound daft (probably is) but there has been no further announcement on how the LL will be expanded yet. If there are only a couple of applicants then there is no difficulty. If there were a pile (unlikely) then it would be interesting to see how that is dealt with if it added value to the whole concept.

[HTG]

As one that has been an active member of the Juniors section for long enough, my suggestion is to stick the usual suspects on ignore as they have no true intentions of any serious discussion on any Lowland League topic, only looking for "bites" like five year olds on Facebook. At least now you are getting to see what the decent posters over there like RobRoyGuy have to put up with.

Gretna were getting over 400 over the summer just for friendlies in a tournament, that's the reality.

Considering this week there's been Junior clubs reporting games with only seven going through the gate on a dry Saturday afternoon (FFS, even Civil Service Strollers manage better), the LL needs no lectures on attendances from those that apart from the perennial trophy winners find spectators melting like snow off a dyke.

Oh dear ...

[Guest]

Who said anything about clubs not to get their grounds up to standard? And you accuse me of making an idiotic statement.

Clubs can bring their grounds up to standard if they wish. What I do object to is getting membership of the SFA just to gain financially from the Scottish Cup while not participating in SFA backed system.

We are thriving without your 400 plus gates and will only go from strength to strength. Enjoy looking in while you stagnate.

My Welsh friend is right, and delusion is the problem. Do Talbot, Linlithgow or any of the top Junior sides look like they're stagnating? Talbot and rose already have grounds to compare with any non league set up and good crowds. Talbot have three officially register supporter clubs who take buses to every away game, one of these clubs (The Loons) regularly takes two buses, that's 200 fans travelling without taking cars into account, stagnating? The fifth tier is all about having clubs with the ambition to step up, my God, into what? A piss poor 4th tier? Most of the clubs in the LL do not have anything to suggest they could thrive in the Seniors, why do they want this? One of the best run club in the LL apparently is Spartans who are desperate to go up, why? To compete with Hibs and Hearts, oh and Livingston, who have been in administration and can hardly get a four figure crowd in a month of Sunday's. Hibs & Hearts despite having good supports are not thriving, they are struggling, so all we need is another Senior club in Edinburgh, aye right! The whole restructure from top to bottom including the LL is the biggest myth since the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. If you have any brains you have to be aware of this, even if you don't want to admit it, it is shite. The only part of the Senior game that is remotely interesting is the second tier, the old SFL1, and they were sold down the river! My friend Scottish Senior football is stagnating. Most, probably all, the 4th tier should be in a non league set up with the best of the current non league like Rosé and Spartans and regionalised with one national cup, the current Junior Cup. Tier one should have 16/18 teams part of two Senior divisions which would let talent grow. What we have ended up with is a shuffle with no real change. The fifth tier is lip service and populated give or take a few by small clubs with small income and small supports. This is not a fifth tier, it's a fudge! But you guys have bought the dream and actually believe you are contenders. The truth is that the whole pile of shite is bad news for us all, but to use the term stagnate about Rosé Talbot and the like really takes the biscuit, take the blinkers off and look at Scottish Senior Football. Big Junior clubs should be applauded for seeing through the smoke screen. Oh and they will probably make the Senior Cup a tad more interesting than it would be otherwise!

[DG7]

Scotland has a population of about 5 million. It has been no secret that many nations have overtaken us both in international competitions and also in the pan-European club competitions.
There's no quick fix for this but it is really disappointing that club football in Scotland is so fragmented. Highland, Lowland, Juniors. It would make much more sense for them all to be in the same set-up together. That way the big clubs progress, the smaller ones go down to find their level.
Having a more competitive league (at all levels) would be beneficial.
I don't get the attitude of not wanting to join a set-up which could open the door to entrance to the senior professional leagues.
The English certainly had the right idea by creating their pyramid system. That's not to say the Scottish system should be the same, but it certainly needs to change from the status quo and at least the Lowland League and the establishment of a pyramid working group is a step in the right direction.

[Aubrey Maturin]

I don't get the attitude of not wanting to join a set-up which could open the door to entrance to the senior professional leagues.

The English certainly had the right idea by creating their pyramid system. That's not to say the Scottish system should be the same, but it certainly needs to change from the status quo and at least the Lowland League and the establishment of a pyramid working group is a step in the right direction.

Certainly what happens in England is that the club who win promotion are given the option of progressing. Spennymoor in England could have been promoted from The Northern league on three occasions but chose to remain where they were ( to become financially stable), so if you were to bring the juniors into a pyramid then the option is for hypothetically say a Kelty to win the junior league East and then turn down the opportunity to get to the fifth tier.

This would allow the junior clubs to become part of the pyramid and those that want to progress could do, those that want to stay as big fish in the juniors could do and all would be under the auspices of the one organisation

[Guest]

Scotland has a population of about 5 million. It has been no secret that many nations have overtaken us both in international competitions and also in the pan-European club competitions.

There's no quick fix for this but it is really disappointing that club football in Scotland is so fragmented. Highland, Lowland, Juniors. It would make much more sense for them all to be in the same set-up together. That way the big clubs progress, the smaller ones go down to find their level.

Having a more competitive league (at all levels) would be beneficial.

I don't get the attitude of not wanting to join a set-up which could open the door to entrance to the senior professional leagues.

The English certainly had the right idea by creating their pyramid system. That's not to say the Scottish system should be the same, but it certainly needs to change from the status quo and at least the Lowland League and the establishment of a pyramid working group is a step in the right direction.

Exactly what the powers that be want you to think, LL is a fudge, lip service, rushed in, impotent exactly what they want. I agree with your point about a broader unified non league.

[Cicero]

Your whole premise is underpinned by an "if you're not fast you're last" approach. My club will hopefully get its bronze licence and if it sticks in the craw of posters like you then so much the better. Is it not the case that for LL entry this year you only had to be working towards licence by 2015 or 2016?

I'm not convinced that any further applications will need to flow through a feeder league just because the EoS was ready to roll with a no-brainer of a move for them. If 12, 16 or 20 Junior teams applied for entry next season they could opt to run 2 parallel leagues with a similar number in each. The winners could play off with the HFL winners and the SPFL bottom club for a place in SPFL2 and at the end of the parallel leagues season they could "promote" the top 6 or 8 from each into the Lowland Premier for want of better.

That might sound daft (probably is) but there has been no further announcement on how the LL will be expanded yet. If there are only a couple of applicants then there is no difficulty. If there were a pile (unlikely) then it would be interesting to see how that is dealt with if it added value to the whole concept.

And if you do while you are still out with the pyramid structure, it certainly will. However I will also be delighted if you are refused on that basis, and sticks in craw of the arrogant junior posters.

I really do hope that 20 or more junior clubs along with other non league seniors apply to join the set-up. Hopefully we will get a feeder system in place soon and have a true integrated structure.

In reply to Isa, it may surprise her to know that we are not that far apart in how we see Scottish football progressing. Apart from the usual arrogant rubbish about crowds, I agree with a lot of her post. There should be only two national leagues in a country of our size and the rest should be regionalised.

However we differ on how we go about it. I believe that we need to change the structure from inside. The lower SPFL clubs are not going to change any time soon and things will remain like that if we stay on the outside. The more clubs we get into the system, the more of a voice we will have within their structure, the better the chance of regionalisation.

I do not think that anything will be gained by staying outside remaining as the big fish in the small pond.

[LongTimeLurker]

HTG isn't necessarily wrong with what he writes above. The LL is not explicitly mentioned in the SPFL's constitution on the playoffs for the 42nd club. All that is mentioned is a candidate club identified by the SFA. Things have been left vague enough that there might still be scope for a third feeder.

[DG7]

Maybe the Lowland League was rushed but I think it is a small step forward. Clubs must meet certain standards and this seems to be encouraging clubs to do just that. Good news because instead of throwing money at getting players to win, say, the south of Scotland league, clubs are now looking to get up to the standard required.

Also in the first season of the LL it wouldn't make sense for there to be promotion, so yes this year it is impotent in that respect.

[TFW]

Who said anything about clubs not to get their grounds up to standard? And you accuse me of making an idiotic statement.

Clubs can bring their grounds up to standard if they wish. What I do object to is getting membership of the SFA just to gain financially from the Scottish Cup while not participating in SFA backed system.

We are thriving without your 400 plus gates and will only go from strength to strength. Enjoy looking in while you stagnate.

I hope they don't while they are still operating in an alternative set up.

Your reaction re the Bronze Licence. The only way a ground can get the Bronze Licence is via the ground coming up to scratch, unless I'm deluded too? We're working hard to do so. We didn't get given a ready made ground.

Regardless of whether or not we get access to the Scottish Cup, we're still hoping to get the Licence as it means our ground is up to a certain standard. Where is your problem with that? Read my earlier posts, I'm a fan of Scottish non league football, I'm not anti LL. I've been inside Raydale pre Mileson, during his reign, and to watch Gretna 2008. Your views of the Juniors, and my club in particular are, I suppose, based on similar trips to Beechwood to watch Talbot play?

[Cicero]

I hope they don't while they are still operating in an alternative set up.

Your reaction re the Bronze Licence. The only way a ground can get the Bronze Licence is via the ground coming up to scratch, unless I'm deluded too? We're working hard to do so. We didn't get given a ready made ground.

Regardless of whether or not we get access to the Scottish Cup, we're still hoping to get the Licence as it means our ground is up to a certain standard. Where is your problem with that? Read my earlier posts, I'm a fan of Scottish non league football, I'm not anti LL. I've been inside Raydale pre Mileson, during his reign, and to watch Gretna 2008. Your views of the Juniors, and my club in particular are, I suppose, based on similar trips to Beechwood to watch Talbot play?

Yep you are deluded. It was my reaction to Talbot getting full SFA membership. Read it again.

Incidentally you cannot get the licence without the SFA membership.

Read carefully my posts, I have no problem with the Juniors. I have repeatedly said that most of them are just like the non-league seniors. I grew up watching a junior team from the central belt playing in the old East league. My problem with your club is the way some of their fans arrogantly come on here question the credibility of our league because they have not deigned to join it.

[Rocky85]

If ever I'm struggling to sleep I read this thread