Youth Teams Discussion.

[ropy]

49 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

So we should have weakened our senior squad for a match that could have directly got us to a major tournament so that our youth team could build some experience that might eventually help us to qualify for a major tournament at some point down the line?

That was a specific instance versus a general philosophy 

Pearson made his international debut for Scotland on 15 November 2003, replacing Neil McCann for the final 20 minutes of a 1–0 first leg win over the Netherlands at Hampden Park in the play-off for UEFA Euro 2004;^[45] he did not feature in the second leg, which saw the Dutch qualify. 

The boy was making his debut so unlikely the squad would have been weaker by his omission. The U21s lost their first leg then didn’t do enough in the second.  Would Pearson have made a difference?

Edited November 19, 2022 by ropy

[accies1874]

I think having players either coming through at elite clubs (Doak, Gilmour, McTominay, hopefully Morrison and the Man City boys) or clubs expected to win all the time (Celtic and Rangers youths) helps with the winning mentality.

Robertson's established himself as one of the best in the world in his position, Ramsay's competing with the best Premier League right-back of the last 4/5 years, Gilmour was a stand-out in a renowned academy, McTominay's been a regular at a massive club, McGregor's stayed at 100% despite most normal people being bored of Celtic winning every game. Having these mentalities helps, and if the senior level doesn't need the youths then it can be good if they develop together but it doesn't necessarily have to happen at international level.

A bit of a word salad but I hope something made sense.

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, ropy said:

That was a specific instance versus a general philosophy 

Pearson made his international debut for Scotland on 15 November 2003, replacing Neil McCann for the final 20 minutes of a 1–0 first leg win over the Netherlands at Hampden Park in the play-off for UEFA Euro 2004;^[45] he did not feature in the second leg, which saw the Dutch qualify. 

The boy was making his debut so unlikely the squad would have been weaker by his omission. The U21s lost their first leg then didn’t do enough in the second.  Would Pearson have made a difference?

Considering the manager put him on the pitch for 20 mins and he helped us win that game. Then I'd say the managers opinion was that he would improve the squad and also to team.

This is a really bad example to help emphasise your point.

[Savage Henry]

On 15/11/2022 at 21:39, DavidMcG said:

Elliot Anderson is in Dubai with some of the other Newcastle players.

I think it's quite clear now that he doesn't really have an interest in playing for the under 21s. 

Whether that's because he believes it isn't worth his time (like Hickey did) or whether he wants to pursue England as his first choice I'm not sure. 

I wouldn’t want to play for Scotland Gemmill either.  Or Billy Stark, either.   

[ropy]

1 hour ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Considering the manager put him on the pitch for 20 mins and he helped us win that game. Then I'd say the managers opinion was that he would improve the squad and also to team.

This is a really bad example to help emphasise your point.

I covered that above, I was highlighting when I started thinking there was another way. 
 

He didn’t play in the Netherlands  and didn’t play in the second leg of the U21 tie, he was rendered redundant.

This is not about Stephen Pearson. 

Edited November 19, 2022 by ropy

[Bing.McCrosby]

47 minutes ago, ropy said:

I covered that above, I was highlighting when I started thinking there was another way. 
 

He didn’t play in the Netherlands  and didn’t play in the second leg of the U21 tie, he was rendered redundant.

This is not about Stephen Pearson. 

Many apologies, I thought if you were using him as an example to illustrate your point it would be ok for others to comment on it too.

[Gordopolis]

I covered that above, I was highlighting when I started thinking there was another way. 
 
He didn’t play in the Netherlands  and didn’t play in the second leg of the U21 tie, he was rendered redundant.
This is not about Stephen Pearson. 

Fair dos.
Apart from Stephen Pearson then, I'm struggling to think of a player who has been denied to the u21s due to a full squad call, whose absence for the u21s has caused them any notable detriment. Can you?
In essence I don't really think it's particularly a problem for us.

I can see merit in producing a "wave" of players - ideally a full team - in one go as opposed to individuals being promoted piecemeal. Kind of like the Dutch conveyer belt. I think we've got some way to go to get to that stage, though it would be a good aspiration.

[ropy]

1 hour ago, Gordopolis said:

Fair dos.
Apart from Stephen Pearson then, I'm struggling to think of a player who has been denied to the u21s due to a full squad call, whose absence for the u21s has caused them any notable detriment. Can you?
In essence I don't really think it's particularly a problem for us.

I can see merit in producing a "wave" of players - ideally a full team - in one go as opposed to individuals being promoted piecemeal. Kind of like the Dutch conveyer belt. I think we've got some way to go to get to that stage, though it would be a good aspiration.

A full team would be excellent I suspect 3 to 5 top players every two year cycle would be more realistic.

[Bing.McCrosby]

40 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

Fair dos.
Apart from Stephen Pearson then, I'm struggling to think of a player who has been denied to the u21s due to a full squad call, whose absence for the u21s has caused them any notable detriment. Can you?
In essence I don't really think it's particularly a problem for us.

I can see merit in producing a "wave" of players - ideally a full team - in one go as opposed to individuals being promoted piecemeal. Kind of like the Dutch conveyer belt. I think we've got some way to go to get to that stage, though it would be a good aspiration.

Its conjecture to say his absence caused them any detriment, its just as pertinent a point saying we wouldn't have won that first leg with the Netherlands had it not been for Steven Pearson coming on to help us see out the game.

In terms of the games he could have been selected for only one can be looked back as being in anyway important.

 

[Gordopolis]

Its conjecture to say his absence caused them any detriment, its just as pertinent a point saying we wouldn't have won that first leg with the Netherlands had it not been for Steven Pearson coming on to help us see out the game.
In terms of the games he could have been selected for only one can be looked back as being in anyway important.
 

Yeah I wasn't agreeing that Pearson's absence caused the u21s anything - was more discounting him and trying to ask@ropy if there were any other players he thought had fallen into the same situation/category

[Craig fae the Vale]

Anyone know if there's an entry charge for the u19s games this week? Heading to Somerset Park on Tuesday night and want to know how much cash to lift.

[ropy]

3 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

Yeah I wasn't agreeing that Pearson's absence caused the u21s anything - was more discounting him and trying to ask@ropy if there were any other players he thought had fallen into the same situation/category

I haven’t monitored it, there is something around Hickey not playing for the U21s (that goes back to the current regime) but if the team had been full of Patterson and Turnbull type players he may have been more willing. 

[ropy]

1 minute ago, Craig fae the Vale said:

Anyone know if there's an entry charge for the u19s games this week? Heading to Somerset Park on Tuesday night and want to know how much cash to lift.

The U21s was free, not sure if that is across the board 

[Gordopolis]

I haven’t monitored it, there is something around Hickey not playing for the U21s (that goes back to the current regime) but if the team had been full of Patterson and Turnbull type players he may have been more willing. 

So a culture/attitude of "the u21s don't matter"? Interesting, and valid. I can sympathize with Hickey's attitude to an extent. The u21s have been comically inconsistent for decades. You could argue that they haven't had a strategically-minded coach since Rainer Bonhoff. In a way Hickey's stance was brave and draws the eye to the deficiencies there. On the other hand you could say he's a bolshie wee bawbag... but then again that's not an undesirable quality.

For me, it still feels like the shapeless, nothingy coaching at that level is the bump that - if ironed out - could smooth the Performance Schools -> full squad journey.

[Craig fae the Vale]

Scotland u19s 1-3 France u19s.

Young French side very good but Scotland gave a good account of themselves. Very impressed by Chimuanya Ugochukwu in particular, who looks like he'll be an outstanding player.

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

U21 sides don’t offer the access to national teams that it sometimes seems. The reality is that players 18-21 who are good enough for the national side, usually skip past the u21s, usually with just a handful of caps.

Most countries in Europe operate that way. England, Italy, Germany, France, Belgium… their top players for caps and goals typically have unimpressive full international careers.

The same is also very true of Scotland. Just look at our top scorers and those most capped, and the the common trait is not making it.

It seems obvious once you think about it - after all, Gilmour, Robertson, Tierney, Patterson, Hickey, Ramsay have all skipped past it. Players like Daily are the exception to the rule.

It would be nice to have a successful u21 side, but it’s not a marker of much more than how poorly coached they are (we do massively underperform at u21 level in comparison to both the full side, and the u17/u19 levels).

[cowboy]

i see man city have a boy called alex robertson on the bench tonight, i quick look at wiki says, he's born in dundee and eligible for us (birth) australia (dad) peru (mum) and engerland (school). wonder if we approached him and he knocked us back?

[Pie Of The Month]

Alan Nixon reporting we are trying to get Japan u19 full back Jay Haddow of Blackburn to declare for Scotland.

[craigkillie]

Would be good to have some options in the troublesome full-back positions.

[Gordopolis]

1 hour ago, Pie Of The Month said:

Alan Nixon reporting we are trying to get Japan u19 full back Jay Haddow of Blackburn to declare for Scotland.

Haddow? Didn't Cliff Richard used to play for them?