dorlomin Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 The obvious answer would be Egypt. Look what happened to the democratically elected government there. Your turn now. Give me an example of a democracy in the Middle East that does work Define Middle East, because Turkey has a functioning democracy and is often included Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 The obvious answer would be Egypt. Look what happened to the democratically elected government there. Your turn now. Give me an example of a democracy in the Middle East that does work Turkey has had a fully functioning democracy since the 1920s, champ. Egypt has passed in and much less so, out of military rule since its last British-backed (as always) puppet monarch was punted after the war. That said, it is hard to deny that mass, direct democratic pressure contributed to the fall of the last two regimes there. States do not build strong civic institutions overnight though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 While we are at it, Lebanon has a functional democracy. Bit wild west style but still elections and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placidcasual Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Turkey has had a fully functioning democracy since the 1920s, champ. Egypt has passed in and much less so, out of military rule since its last British-backed (as always) puppet monarch was punted after the war. That said, it is hard to deny that mass, direct democratic pressure contributed to the fall of the last two regimes there. States do not build strong civic institutions overnight though. That'll be Turkey, a founding member of the Council of Europe? Turkey who have been trying to attain full membership of the EU for goodness knows how long, champ? Obviously there are examples of democracy working in the Middle East. I should have perhaps said that generally it doesn't work. Look what happened when they tried to foist it on Iraq. Civil war again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethbalesstupidface Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 maybe its foisting democracy on a country that doesnt work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 actually got nowhere near a nuclear launch. if you read the testimony of the officer who got the initial warnings he said he knew it couldnt possibly be an attack, in both instances, as he had always been trained that any attack would involve a massive launch of hundreds of missiles, and he was only getting 2 or 3. so really nowhere near it. nothing like as dangerous a situation as we are in now. as for china you clearly didnt see their latest aircraft carrier unveiled only this year, or their latest fighter jet which is remarkably enough identical to americas later fighter, sparking claims from america just this year also that china must have stolen the plans. They currently havre one carrier, finished from a half built Russian hull, capable of 30 odd knots and carrying 25 fixed wing aircraft - even if the Chinese only own 16 carrier capable Sukhoi Su-33 derivitives. Hardly likely to trouble the USN, which with 12 active carrier groups (each carrier with 100+ aircraft) consitutes the world's third largest airforce in it's own right. As for the fighter you mention, there are 1, maybe 2 pre prouction prototypes. Little is known about it except that there has been some work to make the airframe more stealthy, at least from a frontal point of view. it looks to be a bit of a dog and yes, was obviously using tehcnology no doubt gained from Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and BAE systems. It's likely to be underpowered and with relatively primitive sensor fusion and low weapon reliablility with respect to either the F-22, F-35 or Eurofighter Typhoon. It will be 5 or more years before there is any kind of squadron service, possibly more. Besides, this is about power projection. They have no overseas bases they can use, no large scale air to air refueling, no large maritime tonnage for hauling troops and equipment and no where near enough force protection. China is an economic power but is in no way a military threat - beyond it's nuclear arsenal - to the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 That'll be Turkey, a founding member of the Council of Europe? Turkey who have been trying to attain full membership of the EU for goodness knows how long, champ? Turkey that has massively cooled on EU entry (for economic purposes, rather than a yearning for European cultural affinity), Turkey an overwhelmingly Muslim country like the rest of the Middle East, Turkey the successor state to the Ottomans who ran almost the entire 'Middle East', and Turkey that shares its current borders with Iraq and Syria. A rather categoric qualification for Turkey as being in the 'Middle East' then. And a democracy. Obviously there are examples of democracy working in the Middle East. I should have perhaps said that generally it doesn't work. Look what happened when they tried to foist it on Iraq. Civil war again. Not sure why you think an external occupation coupled with piss-poor planning is a credible demonstration of the Middle East being "not ready" for democracy. You still haven't actually explained why you think it doesn't work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethbalesstupidface Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 excellent post, I stand corrected, or slightly better informed at least. however russia clearly is more than capable of projecting its power way beyond its borders, and as I already said it isnt china spoiling for a fight its us and the usa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placidcasual Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Not sure why you think an external occupation coupled with piss-poor planning is a credible demonstration of the Middle East being "not ready" for democracy. You still haven't actually explained why you think it doesn't work? I've given you an example of democracy failing spectacularly in the Middle East. Ask Morsi and his supporters if it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethbalesstupidface Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 you have, but that doesnt mean "democracy generally doesnt work in the middle east", especially since you were then given several examples of democracy working quite well in the middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 David_Cameron: Speaker agrees my request to recall Parliament on Thurs. There'll be a clear Govt motion & vote on UK response to chemical weapons attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBud Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 nobody said that then. you're a bit of idiot tbh. British push for World War III - First, we had the bombing of the Chinese Embassy on May 7, a deliberate act, - lead very rapidly toward World War III http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1999/eirv26n23-19990604/eirv26n23-19990604_080-editorial.pdf Better luck next time Mr Icke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I've given you an example of democracy failing spectacularly in the Middle East. That's not what I asked. Why do you think the Middle East can't sustain democratic government? What are the general reasons and factors that explain this so-called divergence? Ask Morsi and his supporters if it works. Or ask the tens of millions who binned his government down the line. Egypt has quite clearly seen the development of genuine democratic agitation, on a much larger and more direct scale than seen in much of European history. By means of comparison, France since its original revolution has gone through two empires, a directorate and is currently on its fifth republic. Quite a few of which were binned in part due to the putting up of barricades by people pissed off with the current regime. None of which 'proved' France more or less capable of developing a genuine democracy than the UK, which had precisely zero political coups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placidcasual Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 you have, but that doesnt mean "democracy generally doesnt work in the middle east", especially since you were then given several examples of democracy working quite well in the middle east. Why, then, are around 75% of the states under some sort of authoritarian regime? Do you think places like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE etc are ready for a democracy? In my opinion dictatorships are all that keep these places from sectarian civil wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethbalesstupidface Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 British push for World War III - First, we had the bombing of the Chinese Embassy on May 7, a deliberate act, - lead very rapidly toward World War III http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1999/eirv26n23-19990604/eirv26n23-19990604_080-editorial.pdf Better luck next time Mr Icke. that must have taken you a good bit of searching. I should have said nobody who isnt an idiot said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethbalesstupidface Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Why, then, are around 75% of the states under some sort of authoritarian regime? Do you think places like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE etc are ready for a democracy? In my opinion dictatorships are all that keep these places from sectarian civil wars. largely britains imperial legacy, nothing to do with the make-up of the people who live there, which is what you're suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 largely britains imperial legacy, nothing to do with the make-up of the people who live there, which is what you're suggesting. Syria was a French carve up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
placidcasual Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 largely britains imperial legacy, nothing to do with the make-up of the people who live there, which is what you're suggesting. Do you think you can have democracy without secularism? Democracy is the idea that the people are sovereign. In Islam, there is a divine sovereign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynard Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 largely britains imperial legacy, nothing to do with the make-up of the people who live there, which is what you're suggesting. Ottoman empire more like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 Do you think you can have democracy without secularism? The UK is a democracy, but is not a secular state. Turkey is both democratic and (broadly) secular. Democracy is the idea that the people are sovereign. In Islam, there is a divine sovereign. As opposed to the UK, in which the 'sovereign' is in fact a German at the head of an established church. Are Turkish citizens Muslims, or not? How do they square a democratic state with your grossly simplified characterisation of their religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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