Orange Walk / Scottish Cricket thread

[Sergeant Wilson]

11 hours ago, Empty It said:

11 hours ago, Billy Jean King said:

I am unaware of the link between the death of Bobby Sands and Scotland that would lead to Scots marching through a City decades later to commemorate it. Can you enlighten me and also why its commemorated in such a way given death is not normally commemorated in that fashion.

To my eyes it's a tit for tat thing. The OO do it so we need to find a "reason" to do likewise. If that's not the case I'm sure you will explain it for me.

Definitely a tit 

Harsh...

[Forever_blueco]

52 minutes ago, Ross. said:

I think, but I’m not certain, that it’s to do with the Education in Scotland act from 1870 odds, which meant that all state schools had to be attached to some religion. The majority of schools in Scotland are Protestant, through the seemingly confusing term “Non denominational” which essentially just means “no specific version of Protestantism”. Catholic schools are the next biggest in number.

Historically yes . Non denom schools now the only time I can remember taking part in any sort of religious practice was the end of term assembly for Christmas and Easter where we would be taken to some local church or have a minister come in . Pupils from other religious or ethnic backgrounds could quite easily be excluded at their own or parents request.

The church has nothing to do with the running of a non denominational school . I believe the Catholic Church still has a big input on their schools based. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Forever_blueco

[HeWhoWalksBehindTheRows]

10 hours ago, Namond Brice said:

Are you telling me that you are genuinely unaware that there is a sizable number of Scots with Irish roots and republican sympathies ? And that you are also unaware that the Hunger Strikes were one of the more pivotal moments in a decades long conflict that took place a short ferry trip away ?

And I would imagine that the march is about more than simply commemorating one man's death.

 

Holland is a short ferry trip away and you don't see people celebrating and marching because of someone from there....ah hold on, never mind, as you were.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, superbigal said:

Dont understood the need for new schools being built in Scotland still being attached to religion. Strikes me as a bit separatist for the 2000s.
I get the history of 100 years ago but why continue ?

A: Because a substantial number of parents want their children to be raised in a denominational school and should have that right retained. 

The question is not 'why continue' but rather 'why change this?' and no hard evidence can be provided to justify this. You're going to use the same buildings for the same number of pupils anyway, so it's not a burden on the taxpayer. Which leaves us with tears and snotters about 'segregation!' compared to a century of demonstrable integration of Scotland's largest religious minority into society and professional workplaces, thanks in part to denominational schooling. 

[sophia]

1 hour ago, Namond Brice said:

We already have laws to deal with public disorder and anti social behaviour.

Are you suggesting we introduce fresh legislation to specifically ban the OO from marching ?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-factsheets/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-protest-powers-factsheet 

[Salt n Vinegar]

Ok, I've looked at page one and am none the wiser.  Why in the name of sanity is there a combined thread about these marches and cricket? 

[oneteaminglasgow]

3 hours ago, sophia said:

I do sympathise.

I was very simply and clearly suggesting that you can legislate to mitigate against protesters who create repeated public nuisance without impinging on the rights of others to gather and protest. 

How, exactly, do you define ‘public nuisance’ in such a way that it cannot be used as a cover to impinge on the rights of others to protest?

[Salt n Vinegar]

14 minutes ago, virginton said:

A: Because a substantial number of parents want their children to be raised in a denominational school and should have that right retained. 

The question is not 'why continue' but rather 'why change this?' and no hard evidence can be provided to justify this. You're going to use the same buildings for the same number of pupils anyway, so it's not a burden on the taxpayer. Which leaves us with tears and snotters about 'segregation!' compared to a century of demonstrable integration of Scotland's largest religious minority into society and professional workplaces, thanks in part to denominational schooling. 

I understand that way of thinking but as there are so many religions and sects, having the state set up and maintain an education service pandering to the religious whims of Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Pastafarians, Presleytarians and Jediists would seem ridiculous.

Of course the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Scotland talk about working together etc... the continuance of each strengthens the other.  In many respects they are the religious equivalent of the "two cheeks of the same arse" political viewpoint of folk like George "the cat" Galloway. 

[Billy Jean King]

I've already explained that it's probably about more than one man's death.
You could always read up on it, as I'm not really keen to give a primary school level history lesson to someone being deliberately obtuse.
It's also not really up to you to dictate how other people commemorate or remember the death of others.
 

Take that as a no connection then. Two cheeks if ever proof was needed. They are marching so we are marching. Doesn't get clearer than that.

[Ross.]

40 minutes ago, Forever_blueco said:

Historically yes . Non denom schools now the only time I can remember taking part in any sort of religious practice was the end of term assembly for Christmas and Easter where we would be taken to some local church or have a minister come in . Pupils from other religious or ethnic backgrounds could quite easily be excluded at their own or parents request.

The church has nothing to do with the running of a non denominational school . I believe the Catholic Church still has a big input on their schools based. 

Pupils from other faiths can also study at Catholic Schools and be excluded from the services. There were quite a few non Catholic kids at the school I went to who done just that.

The local church may take little to do with the running on the school, but by the letter of the law non denominational schools are still Protestant schools.

As far as I am concerned, all state schooling should be secular. A lot of people seem to confuse the term “non denominational” with meaning secular, when it doesn’t mean that at all. It’s one of the small things that contribute far more to this issue than they should if you ask me, because it leads to radio hosts and newspaper columnists talking about “closing Catholic schools” while completely ignoring that every state school in Scotland is linked to a church. Most, I assume(perhaps naively), suggest that from a position of ignorance of the laws on Scottish education.

[vikingTON]

10 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

I understand that way of thinking but as there are so many religions and sects, having the state set up and maintain an education service pandering to the religious whims of Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Pastafarians, Presleytarians and Jediists would seem ridiculous.

If there were sufficient demand for a denominational school from these groups and demonstrable evidence of benefit - or at least no harm - to pupils in them then a civilised state should accept this. There is no need for a one size fits all approach to education and parents should be empowered to make that choice. 

The fact of the matter is that the state has already invested in denominational schools and would have to invest in the same number of schools now anyway, unless you want to create 5,000 pupil, knife-addled rape sheds and pocket the savings instead. The economic cost of maintaining the status quo then is zero. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by vikingTON

[Forever_blueco]

8 minutes ago, Ross. said:

Pupils from other faiths can also study at Catholic Schools and be excluded from the services. There were quite a few non Catholic kids at the school I went to who done just that.

The local church may take little to do with the running on the school, but by the letter of the law non denominational schools are still Protestant schools.

As far as I am concerned, all state schooling should be secular. A lot of people seem to confuse the term “non denominational” with meaning secular, when it doesn’t mean that at all. It’s one of the small things that contribute far more to this issue than they should if you ask me, because it leads to radio hosts and newspaper columnists talking about “closing Catholic schools” while completely ignoring that every state school in Scotland is linked to a church. Most, I assume(perhaps naively), suggest that from a position of ignorance of the laws on Scottish education.

I’m aware other faiths can study at catholic schools and also free to be excluded from any religious activities . Didn’t meant to come across as thinking that wasn’t the case at catholic schools on my post.

my point was basically that the church seems to be far more present and at times heavily involved at decision making within catholic schools than in modern non-denominational schools . Church presence in my school was practically zero apart from as I said the token Easter and Christmas assembly. From friends and colleagues who attended a catholic school they do state the church was far more involved and present in the school. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

45 minutes ago, sophia said:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-factsheets/police-crime-sentencing-and-courts-bill-2021-protest-powers-factsheet 

Lol.

I've stated that laws banning the OO and Republican marches would be used against others like BLM and you've just posted a link from the UK government that specifically mentions these new powers being used against BLM and Extinction Rebellion.

The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill is absolutely something that should never be introduced in Scotland.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

23 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

1 hour ago, Namond Brice said:

I've already explained that it's probably about more than one man's death.
You could always read up on it, as I'm not really keen to give a primary school level history lesson to someone being deliberately obtuse.
It's also not really up to you to dictate how other people commemorate or remember the death of others.
 

Take that as a no connection then. Two cheeks if ever proof was needed. They are marching so we are marching. Doesn't get clearer than that.

If you want to pretend to not understand something that is relatively simple, then bash on.

We'll leave it here.

[sophia]

11 minutes ago, Namond Brice said:

Lol.

I've stated that laws banning the OO and Republican marches would be used against others like BLM and you've just posted a link from the UK government that specifically mentions these new powers being used against BLM and Extinction Rebellion.

The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill is absolutely something that should never be introduced in Scotland.

I'll bid you good day

[Salt n Vinegar]

8 minutes ago, virginton said:

If there were sufficient demand for a denominational school from these groups and demonstrable evidence of benefit - or at least no harm - to pupils in them then a civilised state should accept this. There is no need for a one size fits all approach to education and parents should be empowered to make that choice. 

The fact of the matter is that the state has already invested in denominational schools and would have to invest in the same number of schools now anyway, unless you want to create 5,000 pupil, knife-addled rape sheds and pocket the savings instead. The economic cost of maintaining the status quo then is zero. 

I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not buying it - nothing really avoids the background issue.  The apparent desire of a state education system to encourage and actively promote acceptance of ancient myths/legends/stories* as divine revelation that are true?  Religious discrimination in teaching appointments - discrimination, backed by statute? Religious appointees serving as members of local authority Education Committees (most of whom are directly appointed by the Church of Scotland or Roman Catholic Churches and therefore unelected).   The current constitutional system in the UK is at least in part kept in place by utter nonsense like the Head of State holding office by the grace of a God and apparent acceptance of the rather odd notion (shared only with Iran) that we must reserve places in our legislature for individuals whose only necessarily qualification is that they believe in the same deity. Well, if you can buy that, of course the education system makes sense. 

As for the "promotion of tolerance stuff" away and give me peace. No religion that has as one of its defining principles the restriction mandated in John 14:6 has any right to make such a claim

Religion is many people's favourite toy.  I have no issue with that. In churches - fine. At home - fine. At school? Well, education about religions is fine by me, indeed it would be difficult to understand a lot of what is going on in the world without some understanding of it and its roots.  However, having maths teachers needing religious "approval"? Really? 

Still, there is one advantage of children being exposed to these stories when young... the tales are so illogical, contradictory and anti-scientific that they encourage the output of atheists like me.  I went along with the "God" stuff until I was about 12.  My dad was an elder in the Church of Scotland and some daft old bat in Sunday School tried to convince me that a rainbow was a message from God. I never went back.  No, enough of this pish.

(* select according to personal belief/credulity) 

[Clown Job]

3 hours ago, superbigal said:

Dont understood the need for new schools being built in Scotland still being attached to religion. Strikes me as a bit separatist for the 2000s.
I get the history of 100 years ago but why continue ?

Because we still have these anti catholic marches today 

You’d be hard pressed to argue for them to be closed while these are still going on, especially as it does come across as who is to blame for anti catholic bigotry?…. The Catholics

Plus a lot of the Institutionalised and day to day discrimination again catholic wasn’t some issue that happened a long time ago that nobody remembers.

So I can see why people are sceptical about calls to close down catholic schools 

[vikingTON]

20 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not buying it - nothing really avoids the background issue.  The apparent desire of a state education system to encourage and actively promote acceptance of ancient myths/legends/stories* as divine revelation that are true?  Religious discrimination in teaching appointments - discrimination, backed by statute? Religious appointees serving as members of local authority Education Committees (most of whom are directly appointed by the Church of Scotland or Roman Catholic Churches and therefore unelected).   The current constitutional system in the UK is at least in part kept in place by utter nonsense like the Head of State holding office by the grace of a God and apparent acceptance of the rather odd notion (shared only with Iran) that we must reserve places in our legislature for individuals whose only necessarily qualification is that they believe in the same deity. Well, if you can buy that, of course the education system makes sense. 

As for the "promotion of tolerance stuff" away and give me peace. No religion that has as one of its defining principles the restriction mandated in John 14:6 has any right to make such a claim

Religion is many people's favourite toy.  I have no issue with that. In churches - fine. At home - fine. At school? Well, education about religions is fine by me, indeed it would be difficult to understand a lot of what is going on in the world without some understanding of it and its roots.  However, having maths teachers needing religious "approval"? Really? 

Still, there is one advantage of children being exposed to these stories when young... the tales are so illogical, contradictory and anti-scientific that they encourage the output of atheists like me.  I went along with the "God" stuff until I was about 12.  My dad was an elder in the Church of Scotland and some daft old bat in Sunday School tried to convince me that a rainbow was a message from God. I never went back.  No, enough of this pish.

(* select according to personal belief/credulity) 

It was only a matter of time before a discussion of serious concerns and why oh why must the education sector face the crushing burden of school provision descended into a Richard Dawkins tribute act tbh. 

The reality is that truly strident secularists are a minority within Scottish society and a non-event in Scottish politics. Until that changes, denominational schools are going nowhere. 

[Salt n Vinegar]

31 minutes ago, Dolf said:

If religion is the problem attacking faith schools is pointless until that's been dealt with

In my experience though I've never lived in a country with vociferous opposition to faith schools and its no coincidence that the most noise is being made in Northern Ireland and Scotland,two countries where Catholics were second class citizens in living memory

And let's call a spade a spade,the opposition in both places is to catholic schools not faith schools in general

Not in my case. I went to a "non-denominational" school in the 1960s and 1970s, and we had religious tripe force fed to us every day. Morning assemblies with 2 hymns, the Lord's Prayer and (in secondary) a Bible Reading by a pupil , not just at Christmas, Easter etc but every day, first thing when the school day was starting.  If the hapless selected pupil didn't have a reading in mind one was "selected" for him/her.  One morning, a particularly rebellious lad didn't read the. "prescribed" piece and went for it by giving a bit of Revelation laldy in a quasi Ian Paisley accent. Some of the teachers were glowering and others were laughing.  The reader was told to report to the Headmaster after assembly, and was presumably reminded of the love of God via a close encounter with a "Lochgelly".  (Younger, puzzled readers should google images of "a Lochgelly". ) Apparently kids shouldn't be reminded that some parts of the good book aren't particularly good, even in an educational setting... 

Recently there was a bill in the hoose o' lairds about religion in schools in England. In the debate one old dude had a great suggestion. He suggested keeping religious observance in schools by all means, but make it voluntary and at the end of the day.  I think then you'd see what the response was.  

Anyway, I've wasted enough time on the implications of faith cults for one day. Time to get back to reality. 

[Forever_blueco]

17 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

Not in my case. I went to a "non-denominational" school in the 1960s and 1970s, and we had religious tripe force fed to us every day. Morning assemblies with 2 hymns, the Lord's Prayer and (in secondary) a Bible Reading by a pupil , not just at Christmas, Easter etc but every day, first thing when the school day was starting.  If the hapless selected pupil didn't have a reading in mind one was "selected" for him/her.  One morning, a particularly rebellious lad didn't read the. "prescribed" piece and went for it by giving a bit of Revelation laldy in a quasi Ian Paisley accent. Some of the teachers were glowering and others were laughing.  The reader was told to report to the Headmaster after assembly, and was presumably reminded of the love of God via a close encounter with a "Lochgelly".  (Younger, puzzled readers should google images of "a Lochgelly". ) Apparently kids shouldn't be reminded that some parts of the good book aren't particularly good, even in an educational setting... 

Recently there was a bill in the hoose o' lairds about religion in schools in England. In the debate one old dude had a great suggestion. He suggested keeping religious observance in schools by all means, but make it voluntary and at the end of the day.  I think then you'd see what the response was.  

Anyway, I've wasted enough time on the implications of faith cults for one day. Time to get back to reality. 

Not sure if you disagree with my “only Easter and Christmas” point but Just to point out I went to school in the 2000’s and not the 60’s and 70’s which is probably why our experience differs
 

I have no doubts that non-denom schools at one point were probably as full of religious practices as faith schools but nowadays I don’t think that is the case at all