Independence - how would you vote?

[Savage Henry]

Where are these people and how has the polling data completely failed to identify them?

That's a ridiculous comment. They are right here. In this thread. Polling data is hardly some kind of all-encompassing gospel. I'm not going to go through every single poll conducted and tell you where those people live. You can do that yourself, if you wish. Nobody is arguing that it's the main talking point in speakeasies across the land. Just, perhaps, Glasgow's west end.

And again, if it doesn't matter to you, that's fine. I don't really see the point of you telling other people what they can or cannot discuss on a football forum, or of others accusing folk of "intellectual snobbery" This forum, this thread, this website is full of stuff that's important to some folk and not remotely important to others. Such is P&B.

[Swampy]

That's a ridiculous comment. They are right here. In this thread. Polling data is hardly some kind of all-encompassing gospel. I'm not going to go through every single poll conducted and tell you where those people live. You can do that yourself, if you wish. Nobody is arguing that it's the main talking point in speakeasies across the land. Just, perhaps, Glasgow's west end.

You don't know better than the polling data. You may think you do, but you don't.

It's not the main point of discussion in Glasgow's West End. It's not the main point of discussion anywhere. It's not even on the radar.

And again, if it doesn't matter to you, that's fine. I don't really see the point of you telling other people what they can or cannot discuss on a football forum, or of others accusing folk of "intellectual snobbery" This forum, this thread, this website is full of stuff that's important to some folk and not remotely important to others. Such is P&B.

Can you quote a single, solitary occasion in which I've said people can't discuss this?

[paranoid android]

People who will be voting No - are you happy with Tory rule, aye?

[xbl]

That's a ridiculous comment. They are right here. In this thread. Polling data is hardly some kind of all-encompassing gospel. I'm not going to go through every single poll conducted and tell you where those people live. You can do that yourself, if you wish. Nobody is arguing that it's the main talking point in speakeasies across the land. Just, perhaps, Glasgow's west end.

They are indeed right here. In this thread. In their entirety.

[Savage Henry]

You don't know better than the polling data. You may think you do, but you don't.

It's not the main point of discussion in Glasgow's West End. It's not the main point of discussion anywhere. It's not even on the radar.

Can you quote a single, solitary occasion in which I've said people can't discuss this?

1. I didn't say I did. Polling data is not, as I said, a gospel.

2. You said, none of this matters. Telling other people what is or is not important, is akin to saying people shouldn't be discussing it. It's dismissive and, frankly, makes you look entirely condescending. To be fair, it's only because you aren't interested. It's not like another poster who had his arse handed to him and then proceeded to claim it didn't matter. I realise that you contribute a great deal to this thread, but this is the direction the thread is currently going. It matters to people, if only Scotland's role in the international community is pretty damn significant, I would suggest, whether you think so or not. For some people, International Relations is an interesting topic. I was, however, being facetious with that bit about Ashton Lane. Neurology isn't being discussed in too many pubs either, in case you hadn't noticed.

3. I'm a little concerned that the thread's most vociferous Yes campaigner (not you by the way) believes the distinction between state and nation in a practical sense isn't important, and has absolutely no interest in how an independent Scottish state would interact with other states. It's almost like some people are actually advocating a unilateral Scotland. Voting yes for independence and yet not caring one iota what status the country has in the society of states is myopic to the point of laziness.

4. I'm reminded of one campaigner who tried to convince me an independent Scotland should take unilateral, pre-emptive military action on Germany. Not sure why.

[Swampy]

1. No, it's not gospel, and it's not destiny. But it's a far better indicator than three or four seasoned derailers on a message board.

2. Scotland's role in the international community will be impacted this much by the outcome of the conversation currently taking place: zero percent.

3. I'm not concerned by this because in the context of an independence referendum it doesn't matter. At all.

4. Yeah, coz that's the same.

[Savage Henry]

1. No, it's not gospel, and it's not destiny. But it's a far better indicator than three or four seasoned derailers on a message board.

2. Scotland's role in the international community will be impacted this much by the outcome of the conversation currently taking place: zero percent.

3. I'm not concerned by this because in the context of an independence referendum it doesn't matter. At all.

4. Yeah, coz that's the same.

1. Indeed.

2. Indeed.

3. I find that an astonishing thing to say. Genuinely.

4. Just mentioning. No big deal.

[xbl]

1. I didn't say I did. Polling data is not, as I said, a gospel.

2. You said, none of this matters. Telling other people what is or is not important, is akin to saying people shouldn't be discussing it. It's dismissive and, frankly, makes you look entirely condescending. To be fair, it's only because you aren't interested. It's not like another poster who had his arse handed to him and then proceeded to claim it didn't matter. I realise that you contribute a great deal to this thread, but this is the direction the thread is currently going. It matters to people, if only Scotland's role in the international community is pretty damn significant, I would suggest, whether you think so or not. For some people, International Relations is an interesting topic. I was, however, being facetious with that bit about Ashton Lane. Neurology isn't being discussed in too many pubs either, in case you hadn't noticed.

3. I'm a little concerned that the thread's most vociferous Yes campaigner (not you by the way) believes the distinction between state and nation in a practical sense isn't important, and has absolutely no interest in how an independent Scottish state would interact with other states. It's almost like some people are actually advocating a unilateral Scotland. Voting yes for independence and yet not caring one iota what status the country has in the society of states is myopic to the point of laziness.

2. If you're referring to me, I have been consistently saying that none of this nonsense matters for years now.

3. When it comes to the independence vote, it really, really doesn't matter.

[Swampy]

1. Indeed.

2. Indeed.

3. I find that an astonishing thing to say. Genuinely.

4. Just mentioning. No big deal.

3. In light of answer 2 you think this is somehow unreasonable?

4. "Just saying" passive-aggression is the absolute worst.

Just saying.

[Savage Henry]

3. In light of answer 2 you think this is somehow unreasonable?

4. "Just saying" passive-aggression is the absolute worst.

Just saying.

Wasn't intended Swampy. Apologies.

[ellisdee]

People who will be voting No - are you happy with Tory rule, aye?

No.I'd prefer a Labour government in Westminister tbh - but still in the Union,and ideally out of the Eurozone.

[vikingTON]

And I was right. The absurd abuse continues. "Shite", "nobody cares"...

It's not abuse: better luck next time.

It is precisely how the powers that be manoeuvre Scotland within the international community of states that will determine the success, failure or otherwise of an independent Scotland.

lol wut

Erm yes, because as we all know, there is about an equal probability of Scotland becoming a successful entrant to the EU and other mainstream international organisations, or becoming part of the 'Axis of Evil'. There's definitely a lot of 'uncertainty' surrounding this: at least for you, Ad Lib and the handful of other Glasgow uni law students who have plodded onto the scene from time to time.

Just because you've been studying and understand a bare scrap about international relations theory does not make it the determining factor in Scotland's future. Unlucky.

[Swampy]

Wasn't intended Swampy. Apologies.

No worries. I think that although my views and yours might not match up, neither of us is talking about bombing Germany and/or Scotland's airports

[Savage Henry]

No worries. I think that although my views and yours might not match up, neither of us is talking about bombing Germany and/or Scotland's airports

Not yet, not yet...

[paranoid android]

No.I'd prefer a Labour government in Westminister tbh - but still in the Union,and ideally out of the Eurozone.

I don't want to be governed by Tories.

I don't want to be governed by Westminster.

Europe, I'm ok with.

[Ad Lib]

XBL's precise formulation of his own views matter even less to me than yours. I'm simply not concerned about this, at all, and according to the polling data nor is anyone else.It's a slow news day with a lamentable deficit of spectacular own-goals, I understand this - but it still doesn't mean I (or anyone else) actually cares.

It was xbl's formulation that I was contesting in the first place. If you'd actually read what set the ball rolling in the first place, you'd have seen that. If you don't care about xbl's formulation, that's fine. But we were specifically discussing what was a legitimate "sell" and what convinces those who remain unconvinced.

Note, of course, that most of the polling points to independence being least strongly supported by the educated middle classes. And there's been no polling asking whether it's the framing of the debate as one about nation that's keeping them against or not in favour of independence. A lot of people polled do display disengagement with the debate. I can tell you from the campaigning that took place around Glasgow Uni led to a lot of students being turned off by the obsessive partisan operations of YesScotland and BetterTogether.

This speaks to precisely what I'm talking about. The winning post will be reached by engaging these kind of people. It's about how to make the debate relevant to them. And by shifting the debate away from nonsense stuff like nation that people aren't actually justifying and into showing there is nothing to fear and everything to gain from getting rid of the British institutions this middle class cling to like a crutch, you can engender the cultural shift that could tip the balance, rather than simply have independence's support float at around 30-35% indefinitely.

What's being discussed doesn't matter. Nobody outside of this thread and a couple of columnists cares about it. It's not even on the radar in the opinion polling. I'd be hugely surprised if it even fell under 'Other' in opinion polling.

Whatever happened to the healthy criticism between the independence camp? You're more than happy to go on the attack (correctly) when idiots start spamming about how the oil's running out or ill thought out stuff about British identity and suchlike. Yet absolute silence and "it doesn't matter" when xbl spouts pish about nation that he's not even willing to justify with an actual argument. You talk of double-standards but the truth is you see what you want to see.

[Swampy]

Whatever happened to the healthy criticism between the independence camp? You're more than happy to go on the attack (correctly) when idiots start spamming about how the oil's running out or ill thought out stuff about British identity and suchlike. Yet absolute silence and "it doesn't matter" when xbl spouts pish about nation that he's not even willing to justify with an actual argument. You talk of double-standards but the truth is you see what you want to see.

Lies/suppressed reports about oil incomes; the hypocrisy of Britnats; these things have a bearing on the debate.

Xbl's thoughts on nationalism: this does not have a bearing on the debate. At this point I couldn't even tell you what they are. Something about how Yorkshire's not a nation? (That's pretty uncontroversial, I think.) Feel free to paste something you think I should be publicly deploring, and if it passes muster I'll do the honours.

My one overriding point here is that this doesn't matter - not to the electorate at large and certainly not in the context of the independence referendum coming up in a year-and-a-bit's time. It's slow-news-day nonsense when there are no spectacular own-goals to crow about.

[xbl]

Xbl's thoughts on nationalism: this does not have a bearing on the debate. At this point I couldn't even tell you what they are. Something about how Yorkshire's not a nation? (That's pretty uncontroversial, I think.) Feel free to paste something you think I should be publicly deploring, and if it passes muster I'll do the honours.

I believe my thoughts were that I think Scotland is a nation not a province, and therefore, as a country, we should have the right to self determination, like any other independent state. As we are a nation, and not a region like Yorkshire. And I see that as a reasonable reason to want independence.

[Ad Lib]

Lies/suppressed reports about oil incomes; the hypocrisy of Britnats; these things have a bearing on the debate.

Xbl's thoughts on nationalism: this does not have a bearing on the debate. At this point I couldn't even tell you what they are. Something about how Yorkshire's not a nation? (That's pretty uncontroversial, I think.) Feel free to paste something you think I should be publicly deploring, and if it passes muster I'll do the honours.

My one overriding point here is that this doesn't matter - not to the electorate at large and certainly not in the context of the independence referendum coming up in a year-and-a-bit's time. It's slow-news-day nonsense when there are no spectacular own-goals to crow about.

Oh come on that's hugely disinenuous. Healthy criticism is healthy criticism irrespective of whether it takes place in this thread in respect of the remarks of an individual or whether it's in the national press in respect of a remark made by Alex Salmond or Johann Lamont. When a claim by BetterTogether that is nonsense is posted on here by a poster you don't go to the national press and vigorously contest the article in a massive public forum. You take the piss (rightly) out of Tryfield and the grunts on this thread for its own sake. You won't change (m)any people's opinions, but you will discredit bad opinions. You have FREQUENTLY posted to criticise the OPINIONS of BritNats on this thread where what they have been saying is logically incoherent and/or just plain nonsense. If you are to be honest with yourself, you should do the same when xbl does the same on the other side, or else shut the f**k up about hypocrisy and "complicity" by inaction of people like H_B for the opinions expressed by new accounts from craven inbred Dundee fans.

The idea that your remarks on this forum about the McCrone Report or BritNat hypocrisy has any effect on the wider debate is preposterous. This thread has a tiny audience of which fewer still are not already largely decided in which way they intend to vote. This is itself hypocritical of your pooh poohing of H_B's insistence that he doesn't have to answer for people who are manifestly cretinous.

This entire thread doesn't matter to the electorate at large. It doesn't matter to Pie and Bovril at large. Stop pretending you're taking some sort of utilitarian calculation about what is and isn't important in this thread.

xbl is saying that Scotland should be an independent state "because other nations are independent states". Do you agree or disagree with that reasoning, or do you think that the moral basis of states and institutions and independence and democracy are more complicated than that? That's the dispute here. It's not about "oh but everyone understands the question". It's about whether people properly understand what the terms of a debate about statehood are, what's actually at stake and what is the best form of the argument on both sides. Surely someone of your intelligence realises that an argument that essentially amounts to "nations and states should basically be the same thing and if they're not then we should pretend they are because, erm, no reason" isn't a very good one, and one that others who are against or indifferent to independence will not be impressed by.

[Ad Lib]

I believe my thoughts were that I think Scotland is a nation not a province, and therefore, as a country, we should have the right to self determination, like any other independent state. As we are a nation, and not a region like Yorkshire. And I see that as a reasonable reason to want independence.

Again, though, WHY? What is significant about being a nation that makes a nation different from any other political territorial unit? What makes a nation so special that it needs or should have independence rather than being part of one or more bigger sovereign states. Provide your reasons. As they'd say in a maths class: show your working. Don't just restate your conclusion.

Edit to add: and actually, that's not what you said. You said that we should be an independent state (not "have the right to self-determination", which means anything from the right to vote for the right to set up an oil fund to an assembly, to comprehensive devo, to devo max, to independence).

Having the right to independence is not related to whether or not you are independent. You can have the right to self-determination/independence even if you are not in fact an independent state.

What we are asking you is WHY NATIONS MATTER. Why does it matter that Yorkshire is not a region? Why, existentially, is Scotland required in your worldview, to "assume the rights and obligations of an independent nation [sic] like Norway" but Yorkshire isn't?

Why does nation matter here? Why isn't it something more fundamental to ALL political groupings, irrespective of whether or not they are a nation? And if it is something fundamental to all political groupings, explain why Scotland should exercise it, but, say, Yorkshire shouldn't.

This is about something more subtle than the binary status of whether or not you are a nation. It's about democracy. It's about political engagement, and it's about who gets to make the decisions about the things that affect us, and which political communities we identify most closely with on issues.