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Independence - how would you vote?

Independence - how would you vote  

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You've completely sidestepped my question. Please engage.

If you don't do it this time, then frankly I can't be arsed with you and it's your problem.

A nation is "a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent or history". They may also share a territory or a form of government.

A sovereign state (shorthand independent state, independent country, independent, state) is a group of peoples with international legal personality. It has the capacity to enter into treaties with other states and to participate directly as a signatory member of treaty organisations.

A country doesn't in and of itself mean anything. It can be a form of shorthand for sovereign state, but that would mean claiming Scotland isn't a country, which few people would claim. Country, insofar as it does mean anything, simply means a territory recognised as distinct in political geography. It includes, but is not constrained to, sovereign states.

The Scottish independence debate is not about whether Scotland is a nation or a country (it is already both). The question is about whether it should be a sovereign state.

So I ask you for the absolutely final time: why do you think that nationhod (under the definition given above) is relevant or determinative of the question of whether Scotland should become a sovereign state?

Ad Lib,

this is you being pedantic beyond belief, this means nothing to your average everyday person, you know, the people who will be voting either yes or no. Terminology is not what is important to the vast majority of people, maybe in your head it is, but in all honesty apart from yourself, H_B and SH, your in a very lonely little club

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What? Why do I think it matters that we are a nation rather than a province? Because we should have the rights and responsibilities that any independent country should have, and because we are not just Yorkshire.

Ive articulated my assorted reasons for independence many, many times.Im not sidestepping anything here. I just don't get it. As I said, im not a lawyer or a pedant. Im just an average person. You seem to be asking something that nobody cares about.

Unless im misreading and you're asking about general reasons for independence?

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Incidentally, now its been asked for "absolutely the final time", we can all breathe a sigh of relief.

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What? Why do I think it matters that we are a nation rather than a province? Because we should have the rights and responsibilities that any independent country should have, and because we are not just Yorkshire.

This is exactly it. Why shouldn't Yorkshire be allowed to become independent? I think it should be allowed to. Why is Scotland special? Why, morally speaking, is Norway more significant than Alsace? Your argument has to go beyond saying "we're a nation". I need a general justification for why nations are more important than any other group of people based on similar kinds of characteristics.

Ive articulated my assorted reasons for independence many, many times.Im not sidestepping anything here. I just don't get it. As I said, im not a lawyer or a pedant. Im just an average person. You seem to be asking something that nobody cares about.

This isn't complicated. You conflate nationhood with independence. You seem to think they are the same thing and that international legal personality is something that can and can only and/or should only be enjoyed by groups that qualify as nations? Why?

Unless im misreading and you're asking about general reasons for independence?

I'm asking you to explain WHY Scotland being a nation is a reason for it to be independent (simply going "lots of other nations are independent states" is NOT an answer to this; merely an observation: is isn't ought). Why isn't it more fundamentally that Scotland is a geopolitical unit better capable of governing and being identified with for the purposes of governing than the UK and its equivalent institutions? No nation reference required.

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Because as a nation, we should have the same rights and responsibilities as any other independent country.

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Because as a nation, we should have the same rights and responsibilities as any other independent country.

And here's the nub:

Why? What is it about being a nation that MEANS we should have the same rights and responsibilities as other sovereign states. Why?

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Because as a nation, we should have the same rights and responsibilities as any other independent country.

Do you differentiate between a nation and a people?

If so, what are the properties of a "nation" that differentiates it from a people?

Edited by H_B

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Because as a nation, we should have the same rights and responsibilities as any other independent country.

Interesting. Does the Kurdish nation - which does exist, just not as a state, have those rights? Before Israel, was there or was there not a Jewish nation? Words matter, some more than others, and in this case, Ad Lib is correct, and you are utterly wrong.

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I have to be honest, I find the historical status of geographical regions to be irrelevant.

If Westminster was working for us, I'd be all for the union - but it isn't and as a result I would rather Scotland was independent than maintaining the status quo. I would however also be in favour of independence for London or any individual region (eg. Cornwall, hell even Yorkshire if they want it!) who wants to take back control of their own affairs.

The fact is, we are discussing whether a bit of land stretching from Wick to Gretna and its surrounding islands that is known culturally as "Scotland" should become an independent country. The fact it historically was an independent nation before really doesn't have any bearing on the future but the fact it was will inevitably play on the identity and the emotions of the electorate. The two things really shouldn't have any bearing on the debate - but sadly it will.

Edited by Mushroom

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Interesting. Does the Kurdish nation - which does exist, just not as a state, have those rights? Before Israel, was there or was there not a Jewish nation? Words matter, some more than others, and in this case, Ad Lib is correct, and you are utterly wrong.

Is Kurdistan independent? Right, well shut up.

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xbl you would be as well just calling chaps on this and moving on. Ad lib is technically correct and thats the best kind of correct for some people.

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Do you differentiate between a nation and a people?

If so, what are the properties of a "nation" that differentiates it from a people?

I love how people line up to ask questions of the guy who has already said that he doesn't follow all the technical nonsense.

What do you mean by people? Do you think in terms of geography or ethnicity? Are the Scots a people? And does that include new scots such as those of Pakistani descent who were born here?

In many ways, I would argue that a people and a nation are similar in that the people are part of a nation, but that all depends on what you mean by people!

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xbl you would be as well just calling chaps on this and moving on. Ad lib is technically correct and thats the best kind of correct for some people.

Ive never said that he is wrong about whatever he is talking about, just that it is utterly irrelevant to reality. I thought we were moving though, apparently he had asked "for the final time".

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And this is precisely why, if the independence camp want to win, they have to stop the groupthink, which Better Together will largely get away with. "Cause we're a nation m'kay" short-circuits the best justification for independence. Indeed not only is it unpersuasive to people who don't consider nationhood particularly relevant to the question, it might actually be actively off-putting to those who identify with a British nation and perceive Scottish independence as an attack on their sense of being. Now of course that second group are wrong about the existence and nature of that threat, but to prove them wrong and to make them RECEPTIVE to the instrumental arguments of benefit of independence we actually have to reject the nationalistic reasoning, even civic nationalism, of the SNP and of the xbl "m'kay" mentality.

We have to show them that governance exists independently of national identity and sense of belonging, and that governing institutions relate to political, not cultural, communities. We have to show them that Scotland is a better political community because of its capacity to deliver democracy in its structures in ways that Westminster can't or won't. We have to show that it will be better able to give communities control over their affairs. We have to show that it better serves things like the defence and international interests of the communities that are pooling together resources to form that state in the first place.

These are the fundamental questions. That's why the constitution matters on independence. That's why local democracy matters. That's why it's not about the Scottish nation. If you think that it's predominantly or only about nation, then you really don't understand the question. There isn't an inherent moral claim to a certain basket of rights and responsibilities for sovereigns states, let alone nations. Their claims are instrumental, to more fundamental values, and that essential truth calls for a more nuanced debate about what this question really asks us.

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Ive never said that he is wrong about whatever he is talking about, just that it is utterly irrelevant to reality. I thought we were moving though, apparently he had asked "for the final time".

You provided a semblance of a response, which confirmed my initial suspicions. I then followed it up explaining why you were wrong and asking you a different question, whether you could actually justify your re-assertion. Beware partially answering a final question.

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Quite right. And that is why the debate rages throughout Scotland. About whatever you just said.

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Because as a nation, we should have the same rights and responsibilities as any other independent country.

Is Kurdistan independent? Right, well shut up.

Dear oh dear.

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And this is precisely why, if the independence camp want to win, they have to stop the groupthink, which Better Together will largely get away with. "Cause we're a nation m'kay" short-circuits the best justification for independence.

stopped reading here as this isn't what i have been hearing at Yes meetings or from friends in the Yes camp or what I have been speaking to about on the doorsteps. For sure the SNP stick a Saltire on the flyers and figurative saltire on the policies but people are talking about this being a fight for social democracy.

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