Independence - how would you vote?

[BarryHills]

This is interesting.

A Lib Deb fan dan going against party policy.

Wunder if Wullie Rennie knows or has ever heard of AD LIB?

Could damage his political career in years to come spouting out against party policy.

Any aspiration to get a secretarial job with your local MP would be ended by simply highlighting your contributions to the internet.

[Tryfield]

It seems to me like you don't like having your arguments for staying in the union examined in any great depth. This seems to be a common trait among unionists; "I'll tell you what I think but you're not allowed to argue with me".

Whereas most independence supporters I have come across tend to be only do happy do put forward their argument and are confident enough in their beliefs to take on anybody who wishes to debate.

I prefer to look at the bigger picture Todders. I'd love to see two layers of government disappear. What puts me off Scottish independence is the willingness to loup out of London's bed and straight into Brussels' bed.

Pretend facts, figures and scaremongering on both sides, Yes Scotland and Better Together leave me with no choice but to try my hardest to stop further integration with the EU.

Why hasn't the YES side even commissioned a wee fact finding mission on what Scots want concerning who will really control them? Laziness? Fatigue? Lethargy?

This is what will cost the YES campaign. They have taken it for granted that Scots want to integrate further into the big fankle of the EU.

Why pay to trade with 500million when we could trade freely with 7 billion?

As I said in the old thread, Europe is going to play a bigger part in the referendum than most people expected.

Salmond and Co haven't even asked the Scots what they want. That will be his dreams downfall.

[xbl]

We are already in the EU.

[Tryfield]

We are already in the EU.

Great Britain is in the EU, Scotland as a stand alone country isn't.

Nae luck.

[H_B]

The RBS thing has been dealt with a dozen times already, but once more for the record.

It wasn't just bailed out by the UK, but also by several EU countries, and most especially by the US.

Got a breakdown of this "bailout"?

[xbl]

Great Britain is in the EU, Scotland as a stand alone country isn't.

Nae luck.

Is Scotland not part of Britain?

[xbl]

Got a breakdown of this "bailout"?

Why? Do you have a political point to make with it?

Incidentally, I recall the unionists being taken to the cleaners on this topic repeatedly over the last couple years!

[H_B]

Mr Scott's entire argument rests on the claim that it is a Treaty, ratified by two separate Acts. It rests on the claim that the United Kingdom Parliament would be dissolved, its creation the Scottish Parliament with it, and the old Parliament of Scotland brought back into existence with its old representation, warts and all. This is a nonsensical argument, and one that doesn't even help the independence movement to secure any more of an orderly transition to a functioning modern state in the European Union.

Oh dear... I was kindof hoping to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he wasn't actually peddling this garbage.

The mind boggles!

[Tryfield]

Is Scotland not part of Britain?

I'll let you argue the point against Spain.

[H_B]

Why? Do you have a political point to make with it?

Incidentally, I recall the unionists being taken to the cleaners on this topic repeatedly over the last couple years!

Do you really?

The UK taxpayer, through the hideous Brown government, bailed out RBS. It was the K government Fred Goodwin went to cap in hand so they could continue to keep the doors open, not the EU and certainly not the Americans.

Sadly as it turns out, given we are stuck with the lossmaking mess that it is.

[xbl]

I'll let you argue the point against Spain.

This is not a hard question. Is Scotland part of Britain? If you can't answer it, feel free to do an HB and run away from the topic for a couple of days.

[BarryHills]

I'll let you argue the point against Spain.

Is Spain part of Britain?

[xbl]

Do you really?

The UK taxpayer, through the hideous Brown government, bailed out RBS. It was the K government Fred Goodwin went to cap in hand so they could continue to keep the doors open, not the EU and certainly not the Americans.

Sadly as it turns out, given we are stuck with the lossmaking mess that it is.

So tell me, if Scotland hadn't been part of Britain (and bear in mind, your fellow Unionist seems to think we are not), would we have had to bail RBS out ourselves?

[BarryHills]

Do you really?

The UK taxpayer, through the hideous Brown government, bailed out RBS. It was the K government Fred Goodwin went to cap in hand so they could continue to keep the doors open, not the EU and certainly not the Americans.

Sadly as it turns out, given we are stuck with the lossmaking mess that it is.

poorer together.

[H_B]

So tell me, if Scotland hadn't been part of Britain (and bear in mind, your fellow Unionist seems to think we are not), would we have had to bail RBS out ourselves?

I have no idea. It would have been a nightmare scenario for a Scottish government to deal with.

It's likely that the UK goverment would have stepped in and helped, through self interest.

[Todders]

I prefer to look at the bigger picture Todders. I'd love to see two layers of government disappear. What puts me off Scottish independence is the willingness to loup out of London's bed and straight into Brussels' bed.

Pretend facts, figures and scaremongering on both sides, Yes Scotland and Better Together leave me with no choice but to try my hardest to stop further integration with the EU.

Why hasn't the YES side even commissioned a wee fact finding mission on what Scots want concerning who will really control them? Laziness? Fatigue? Lethargy?

This is what will cost the YES campaign. They have taken it for granted that Scots want to integrate further into the big fankle of the EU.

Why pay to trade with 500million when we could trade freely with 7 billion?

As I said in the old thread, Europe is going to play a bigger part in the referendum than most people expected.

Salmond and Co haven't even asked the Scots what they want. That will be his dreams downfall.

In that case, surely it's better to see one layer of government disappear rather than none?

If there is an appetite for an independent Scotland outside of Europe then the only way that can be achieved is by becoming independent first. Personally, I don't believe such an appetite exists but that's just my opinion.

[xbl]

I have no idea. It would have been a nightmare scenario for a Scottish government to deal with.

It's likely that the UK goverment would have stepped in and helped, through self interest.

Maybe you could look for some precedent, say some examples of money from one country being used to bail out banks headquartered in other countries, with the bail out based on location of banking operations. Can you think of a single example of this? Maybe, oooh, Bank of England money being used to bail out foreign banks? Or perhaps, US money being used to bail out German banks?

You and I both know you've been deeply involved in this discussion before, so I find your memory loss to be quite amusing.

[Todders]

You and I both know you've been deeply involved in this discussion before, so I find your memory loss to be quite amusing.

Selective amnesia is a worrying unionist trait.

[Tryfield]

Is Spain part of Britain?

Spain has a Veto against any newcomers.

Now, if they let Scotland slither in as net contributors to the EU, where do you think the Catalonians and Basque seperatists will stand?

Spain, deep in shit, want as much stability as they can get. Do you truly(hand on heart shit) believe they would give Scotland the nod to join the EU as a new entrant whilst trying to hold onto the Catalans and Basques?

FFS. Think about it.

I think there's more than Spain who would put a spanner in the works too.

Either way, I don't give a shit which way the referendum goes. I'm in a win - win situation.

[xbl]

Spain has a Veto against any newcomers.

Now, if they let Scotland slither in as net contributors to the EU, where do you think the Catalonians and Basque seperatists will stand?

Spain, deep in shit, want as much stability as they can get. Do you truly(hand on heart shit) believe they would give Scotland the nod to join the EU as a new entrant whilst trying to hold onto the Catalans and Basques?

FFS. Think about it.

I think there's more than Spain who would put a spanner in the works too.

Either way, I don't give a shit which way the referendum goes. I'm in a win - win situation.

Is this your new argument for the Union? We might not get in the EU? Do you truly believe that? Now, surely your fellow Unionists aren't so intellectually dishonest as to let this stand?

I'll not hold my breath.

Oh, and you STILL haven't answered whether Scotland is part of Britain. Is that a Yes?