Independence - how would you vote?

[DAFC]

Who'll bomb us first: the US or rUK?

China?

[Mr Rational]

Over the course of this thread I have asked for reasons, I didn't agree with them a gave a counter argument.

As a result I've been labelled various things and been attacked. Like I said the moderate or undecided voters are being turned off by the very thing that's supposed to be helping the snp.

I get the feeling that if I met you in person or as part of some sort of debate forum you would resort to petty name calling or talking over people.

I actually went into the debate as undecided and admitted that I voted the snp last time. I have been scared into a no vote but not by alistair darling or anyone from the no brigade as I can clearly see their agenda also.

I had a vision of a few fame hungry tub thumpers trying to bully the rest of Scotland into the biggest decision of its history by branding everyone who dares to go against them as brainless morons who are incapable of seeing Alex's vision.

Well I looked at the vision, it included the banks and wind power, both of which have crashed yet the nats seem incapable of admitting he got it badly wrong and just accept the next 'glorious vision'.

As I have said if I though Scotland had a good chance of supporting itself and I could see a future better for all I would jump at the chance. Who wouldn't want that?

I think jumping in with both feet regardless of observing and consequences is a tremendous leap of faith that only a small minority of the country actually wants.

I hope over the next year or so the discussions from both sides get out of the gutter and be given a fair and honest platform.

I honestly can't see that happening though unfortunately and therefore any chance we had will be gone because of the failure from both sides to agree to disagree.

I smell shite. Yer mind's been made up long before the debate on here started, I remember you going on about Rosyth a few months back and it was the usual unionist pish.

I rarely use insults but please wait till yer baws drop before coming back on the thread.

[Colkitto]

China?

You're cuckoo

[xbl]

Over the course of this thread I have asked for reasons, I didn't agree with them a gave a counter argument.

As a result I've been labelled various things and been attacked. Like I said the moderate or undecided voters are being turned off by the very thing that's supposed to be helping the snp.

I get the feeling that if I met you in person or as part of some sort of debate forum you would resort to petty name calling or talking over people.

I actually went into the debate as undecided and admitted that I voted the snp last time. I have been scared into a no vote but not by alistair darling or anyone from the no brigade as I can clearly see their agenda also.

I had a vision of a few fame hungry tub thumpers trying to bully the rest of Scotland into the biggest decision of its history by branding everyone who dares to go against them as brainless morons who are incapable of seeing Alex's vision.

Well I looked at the vision, it included the banks and wind power, both of which have crashed yet the nats seem incapable of admitting he got it badly wrong and just accept the next 'glorious vision'.

As I have said if I though Scotland had a good chance of supporting itself and I could see a future better for all I would jump at the chance. Who wouldn't want that?

I think jumping in with both feet regardless of observing and consequences is a tremendous leap of faith that only a small minority of the country actually wants.

I hope over the next year or so the discussions from both sides get out of the gutter and be given a fair and honest platform.

I honestly can't see that happening though unfortunately and therefore any chance we had will be gone because of the failure from both sides to agree to disagree.

1. You are not moderate and undecided. Those who ask genuine questions get genuine answers.

2. Compared to real life, I am EXTREMELY reasonable on here. I think being talked over is the minimum you'd expect. Going by your contribution to this thread, it would be more like a scathing analysis of your failings as a human being.

3. Again, in terms of fear and bullying, just look at the scaremongering from the Unionist side.

4. Wind power has "crashed"? When did this happen? Seems to me like wind power is still on the increase, and not only that, but an official OFGEN (energy regulator) report has admitted that if Scotland was not subsidising electricity generation in the south of England (which I've pointed out many times), then there is no case for new nuclear power, and every incentive to invest in wind and wave. So the renewable industry is being artificially hindered. This is not a Scottish government report remember.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-15711200

5. As for the banks? They appear to still be going, but so what anyway? Some of the biggest banks in the world also got themselves into dire straits. None of these other countries resorted to giving up their nationality.

6. So you think Scotland can't support itself? Does this mean that you are happy for us to be subsidised by England? Rather than try to improve Scotland, you want to resign yourself to hoping our neighbours are nice and generous? And you don't think that attitude is pathetic? Regardless of whether we stay in the CDU or not, we will have to re-invest and re-build to secure our future. All the evidence shows (as I pointed out above) that the British government has a TERRIBLE record when it comes to Scotland.

7. It is very much the No camp in the gutter right now. Even the No supporting media have expressed frustration about this. Indeed, take the GERS report last week. Once again, the Scottish Government released facts, and the No camp countered by trying to smear the SNP and get the numbers out of the headlines. This isn't a "both sides as bad" scenario. One side is definitely worse, and they escape blame for it.

[Mr.Bojangles]

China?

They've got better things to do. It would be suicidal in any case because Scotland is in a strategic position worth fighting over. It wouldn't matter whether we were a member of NATO or not, it would be in their interest to get involved in that scenario or have an overtly aggressive China in Europe.

[DAFC]

So if you don't vote yes then you've failed as a human being and you deserve being shouted over and abused.

That's not really an effective arguement other than to put people off.

[xbl]

So if you don't vote yes then you've failed as a human being and you deserve being shouted over and abused.

That's not really an effective arguement other than to put people off.

See, what you did there was ignored EVERYTHING else. Nothing to say about the "crash" of wind? Nothing to say about the British government's shameful history? Nothing to say about why we lag so badly on so many metrics? No, you've got nothing but fear. And yes, I do believe that those that vote No for no reason other than fear have failed as human beings. I also believe that those that will change their vote regarding the entire future of a nation, because someone calls them a nasty name, can also be considered to have failed as human beings.

[DAFC]

You failed to answer Alex salmonds turncoat policies and nature on ten different occasions going back months.

Shame half the party has resigned because of it.

[xbl]

You failed to answer Alex salmonds turncoat policies and nature on ten different occasions going back months.

Shame half the party has resigned because of it.

"Half the party"? Its the only party in Scotland with an increasing membership! What "turncoat" policies? As I said, I consider no voters who don't have a solid reason for voting no to be failed human beings. Do you consider yourself to be a failed human being? Do you believe you live in a failed country?

[Wee Bully]

So if you don't vote yes then you've failed as a human being and you deserve being shouted over and abused.

That's not really an effective arguement other than to put people off.

Can I ask you some genuine questions arising from your statements on this thread? Do you genuinely believe that;

1. Scotland is subsidised by The rest of the UK?

2. That oil might become obsolete?

3. That oil is the only industry in Scotland?

4. That our foreign policy should be to bully other countries, and

5. That as an independent nation, we are at risk of invasion from China?

[Swampy]

One man's ego!

[DAFC]

Can I ask you some genuine questions arising from your statements on this thread? Do you genuinely believe that;

1. Scotland is subsidised by The rest of the UK?

2. That oil might become obsolete?

3. That oil is the only industry in Scotland?

4. That our foreign policy should be to bully other countries, and

5. That as an independent nation, we are at risk of invasion from China?

1. Looking at reports from the treasury in 2011 the average scot gets over a grand more than the English. You have to balance this against spending which seems to be centralised around London at times and also oil revenue. I guess the follow up question would be can a smaller economy cope with any downturn as easily as the uk as a whole? I don't believe this is fear it's natural to think what if surely?

2. Oil could become absolete, or replaced there could be new scientific evidence on global warming that means we have to stop using it? You never know, unlikely that it would happen but who is to say that some amazing new fuel could come out a year after we go independent. It's highly unlikely but possible.

I certainly wouldn't try to use a supposed oil boom based on oil price as the main reason to go it alone.

3. Of course oil is only one part but it looks like time and again is the only reason the snp give when talking about independence. Other sectors go boom and bust, many of them were celebrated then forgotten about conveniently by the snp.

4. I have no idea what the snps foreign policy is as they keep changing the goalposts on NATO etc. Again petty squabbling and infighting has clouded the main debate and turned people away from the lies.

5. No this was tongue in cheek but china is one of and will probably be the worlds greatest power within fifty years so who knows.

[Swampy]

You know, the no camp have been out in force recently on this thread. It doesn't make pretty reading, does it?

And true to form, not a whisper from the other Britbots when DAFC starts muck-spreading fail all over the thread.

When Colkitto posted his London/Berlin nonsense a couple of pro-independence types publicly disagreed with him. Meanwhile for the Britnats, it doesn't matter what level of nonsense is posted as long as it's in service of Westminster.

You really can set your watch to this stuff. Every single time, this is what happens.

[MassiveFanDan]

The RBS thing has been dealt with a dozen times already, but once more for the record.

It wasn't just bailed out by the UK, but also by several EU countries, and most especially by the US. Why would these countries bail out a Scottish (UK) bank, you ask? Kindness? Altruism?

No. Because the banks were bailed out by the countries they did business in, not solely by the countries they were headquarted in.

This is basic stuff, and it is the unionists' failure to take these realities into account that have lost them the respect of many. It's like when they claim that the UK bailed out Ireland, entirely leaving out the fact that Germany and the ECB were massively involved too.

The reason you're not getting serious answers is because your questions were answered long ago, so repeating them endlessly comes across as trolling (which it probably is).

I don't remember the RBS being recognised much as a specifically Scottish bank when it was (let's not forget) the world's largest single corporation, contributing massively to the UK Treasury over decades.

Nope, only when it failed did it suddenly become a wee Scottish bank from Edinburgh that apparently Alex Salmond was in charge of.

When RBS needed bailing out by the UK government, its balance sheet assets were equivalent to 2,500% of Scottish GDP. So the question naturally arises, how would an independent Scotland have coped? The SNP answer is to blame Westminster (naturally) and the Labour government for the regulatory failure that allowed the crisis to build in the first place. In that respect, I supposed he agrees with David Cameron.

[MassiveFanDan]

I guess the follow up question would be can a smaller economy cope with any downturn as easily as the uk as a whole? I don't believe this is fear it's natural to think what if surely?

How well would you say the UK is coping with it's ongoing downturn? Looks to me like it's having a nervous breakdown over it. Iceland suffered badly from their downturn, and came out stronger. The UK, in traditional fashion, will make sure it's people suffer badly from this downturn, and will come out as shite as ever just in time for the next one.

[xbl]

And true to form, not a whisper from the other Britbots when DAFC starts muck-spreading fail all over the thread.

Yep. I recall the Unionists taking umbrage when I pointed out their intellectual dishonesty, but yet again, we see it in action.

[Colkitto]

When Colkitto posted his London/Berlin nonsense a couple of pro-independence types publicly disagreed with him.

Maybe I was tring to wind up someone who has been on the wind up for a while...maybe..

[MassiveFanDan]

worst suicide rate in the world though. Just sayin'.

Actually I'm talking shite - they're 20th. BUt the UK is 38th. One below Norway.

There you have it. Not being part of the UK makes you suicidal.

You don't have to kill yourself in the UK, you can be sent away to a war and killed there, or just drink yerself to death (an expensive proposition in Norway).

We have a lot more murders too, which lessons the need for DIY.

(These are not serious point btw).

[Swampy]

Maybe I was tring to wind up someone who has been on the wind up for a while...maybe..

Well, fair enough, but at least we self-police

[DAFC]

The RBS thing has been dealt with a dozen times already, but once more for the record.

It wasn't just bailed out by the UK, but also by several EU countries, and most especially by the US. Why would these countries bail out a Scottish (UK) bank, you ask? Kindness? Altruism?

No. Because the banks were bailed out by the countries they did business in, not solely by the countries they were headquarted in.

This is basic stuff, and it is the unionists' failure to take these realities into account that have lost them the respect of many. It's like when they claim that the UK bailed out Ireland, entirely leaving out the fact that Germany and the ECB were massively involved too.

The reason you're not getting serious answers is because your questions were answered long ago, so repeating them endlessly comes across as trolling (which it probably is).

I don't remember the RBS being recognised much as a specifically Scottish bank when it was (let's not forget) the world's largest single corporation, contributing massively to the UK Treasury over decades.

Nope, only when it failed did it suddenly become a wee Scottish bank from Edinburgh that apparently Alex Salmond was in charge of.

Again failure to admit and trivialising the fact the salmond was pinning the hopes of Scotland on the banking sector.