Baxter Parp Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Folk do realise that the benefit Brave is going to have on our economy is a forecast and hasn't actually been demonstrated. It's also a forecast by visitscotland, the very organisation who spent the money promoting it. So the organisation who spent money promoting Scotland on the back of a film are forecasting it to have a great impact on Scotland's economy. The figures in the Ashcroft polling probably have more credibility. Is it all forecasts you object to or just this one? Every government department makes forecasts, the MOD, HMRC, Treasury and so on, should they be disregarded? If you take this to its logical conclusion, all the polls should be disregarded, since they're just forecasts of how people intend to vote. I don't think H_B'll like that much, he loves his polls (usually). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nifty shade of grey Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 So the Panelbase poll wasn't hijacked by nats, it was a unionist plot to discredit it: http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/7992-attempt-to-discredit-panelbase-poll-traced-to-british-unity-activist Lets save a few pages and just accept that the P&B nats will point to this article as evidence, while the unionistas will avoid the content of the article and instead attack the messenger - it's just Newsnat, and they're biased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Is it all forecasts you object to or just this one? Every government department makes forecasts, the MOD, HMRC, Treasury and so on, should they be disregarded? If you take this to its logical conclusion, all the polls should be disregarded, since they're just forecasts of how people intend to vote. I don't think H_B'll like that much, he loves his polls (usually).Economic impact and spend forecasts are notoriously back of the envelope jobs in my experience. Until I see real evidence of visitors from overseas I'll reserve judgement. A couple of hundred folk booking a tour and an increase in visitor numbers to one spot (in a year when most numbers have increased due to signs of economic recovery and visitors being lower last year due to the Olympic effect) doesn't really cut the mustard for me I'm afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 So the Panelbase poll wasn't hijacked by nats, it was a unionist plot to discredit it: http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/7992-attempt-to-discredit-panelbase-poll-traced-to-british-unity-activist Lets save a few pages and just accept that the P&B nats will point to this article as evidence, while the unionistas will avoid the content of the article and instead attack the messenger - it's just Newsnat, and they're biased. No idea if there was any concerted campaign to flood it by nationalists responders but a moot point anyway as it was discredited due to the over weighting of 2011 SNP voters and two dog whistle questions being placed right before the independence question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 As an aside I love on this thread that when the Yes campaign are discovered trying to spin something it's a 'unionist plot to discredit' but when Better Together are discovered being at it then its a sign of unionists being evil. I seriously wished I lived in this 4 legs good, 2 legs bad world. Life would be much simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 "two of the places and landscapes that inspired some of the locations and scenes in the film have already seen a rise in visitors. The cliff top ruins of Dunottar Castle, near Stonehaven, had 16% more visits this summer than the same time last year. Callanish Stones, which were visited by writers and artists from animation studio Pixar during a fact finding tour of Scotland, was an inspiration for the film's ring of stones." This is something that has already happened. Or it could be part of a general recovery. In fact based on wider numbers looks like Brave attractions are under performing. http://m.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/historic-scotland-attractions-welcome-1-7m-people-1-3082012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 As an aside I love on this thread that when the Yes campaign are discovered trying to spin something it's a 'unionist plot to discredit' but when Better Together are discovered being at it then its a sign of unionists being evil. I seriously wished I lived in this 4 legs good, 2 legs bad world. Life would be much simpler. I think that within the wider debate, you could find plenty of Unionists where this 4 legs good, 2 legs bad mantra is very much alive, except the opposite way around from what you state. I'd also question the large sweep of your statement, firstly, there are many Yes supporters in this thread who do not indulge in your so called 4 good, 2 bad' schtick, and it is important to note that this kind of rhetoric is limited to a couple of very active posters. Secondly, there are several no supporters, very active, who do not even take the level of debate to 4 good, 2 bad, and seem incapable of rational thought on the subject, instead reducing the whole thing to 'natclown collectives' and 'Better Together'. I assume you have a nice scathing post set aside for them as well. Ultimately, you have to factor your own inherited biases into this as well: I don't think anyone is generally totally neutral on the subject, and depending on which way you lean, ultimately colours the way you follow this thread, and how you relate to people within this thread. It would be useful to examine those biases before declaring one side or the other to be living in a simple world with poor debating skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 I think that within the wider debate, you could find plenty of Unionists where this 4 legs good, 2 legs bad mantra is very much alive, except the opposite way around from what you state. I'd also question the large sweep of your statement, firstly, there are many Yes supporters in this thread who do not indulge in your so called 4 good, 2 bad' schtick, and it is important to note that this kind of rhetoric is limited to a couple of very active posters. Secondly, there are several no supporters, very active, who do not even take the level of debate to 4 good, 2 bad, and seem incapable of rational thought on the subject, instead reducing the whole thing to 'natclown collectives' and 'Better Together'. I assume you have a nice scathing post set aside for them as well. Ultimately, you have to factor your own inherited biases into this as well: I don't think anyone is generally totally neutral on the subject, and depending on which way you lean, ultimately colours the way you follow this thread, and how you relate to people within this thread. It would be useful to examine those biases before declaring one side or the other to be living in a simple world with poor debating skills. All perfectly fair comment. For clarity I am referring to those active posters you mentioned not every poster who supports yes, most of whom seem pretty reasonable. I think I do tend to notice the hypocrisy of the independence zealots more partly because they are more frequent posters and partly because I get the sense that the main No side posters take themselves less seriously and are mostly here to wind up the zealots. Could be totally wrong of course. I've always wondered if everyone on here is involved in the campaigns or their activism ends on here. Anyone delivered a leaflet or knocked a door? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Economic impact and spend forecasts are notoriously back of the envelope jobs in my experience. Until I see real evidence of visitors from overseas I'll reserve judgement. A couple of hundred folk booking a tour and an increase in visitor numbers to one spot (in a year when most numbers have increased due to signs of economic recovery and visitors being lower last year due to the Olympic effect) doesn't really cut the mustard for me I'm afraid Every organisation on god's green earth makes forecasts or projections of some kind or other. Your eagerness to dismiss this particular one out of hand is illogical and, if I may say so, an indication of some bias, conscious or otherwise, on your part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 I seriously wished I lived in this 4 legs good, 2 legs bad world. Given your previous posts you clearly do, whether you like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Or it could be part of a general recovery. In fact based on wider numbers looks like Brave attractions are under performing. http://m.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/historic-scotland-attractions-welcome-1-7m-people-1-3082012 "Cardoness Castle, near Kirkcudbright in Dumfries and Galloway, saw its total tumble by 26 per cent to 2,171, while Bonawe Iron Furnace, near Oban, was down 24.2 per cent to 1,940." Oh dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBud Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Economic impact and spend forecasts are notoriously back of the envelope jobs in my experience. Until I see real evidence of visitors from overseas I'll reserve judgement. A couple of hundred folk booking a tour and an increase in visitor numbers to one spot (in a year when most numbers have increased due to signs of economic recovery and visitors being lower last year due to the Olympic effect) doesn't really cut the mustard for me I'm afraid Plus the fantastic summer we've had. I've been to Dunnotar twice this summer, having not been in about 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Or it could be part of a general recovery. In fact based on wider numbers looks like Brave attractions are under performing. http://m.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/historic-scotland-attractions-welcome-1-7m-people-1-3082012 Just how desperate are you to turn this into a bad news story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 As an aside I love on this thread that when the Yes campaign are discovered trying to spin something it's a 'unionist plot to discredit' but when Better Together are discovered being at it then its a sign of unionists being evil. I seriously wished I lived in this 4 legs good, 2 legs bad world. Life would be much simpler. Would that be because in the specific case mentioned, there really is evidence of the Unionists being at it? Based on the last few weeks of posts, I suspect that a simpler world would suit you a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Every organisation on god's green earth makes forecasts or projections of some kind or other. Your eagerness to dismiss this particular one out of hand is illogical and, if I may say so, an indication of some bias, conscious or otherwise, on your part. I'm naturally sceptical of any economic impact figures especially any forecast by an agency that benefits from that forecast being good. If Brave makes Scotland £120m then brilliant but I'll believe it when I see it. Their press release has already been shown to attribute an increase in visitors at one location to Brave when it was actually in line with increase at other non Brave attractions. Reinforces my view that there a bit of smoke and mirrors going on and my doubts were perfectly logical. Only posted on it because people were talking about it as if the benefit had actually happened. It hasn't, it's a forecast and in my view a questionable one. No idea what it's got to do with independence either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Barrysnotter revealed as "British Unity" Twitter follower, there. Blimey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbl Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 I'm naturally sceptical of any economic impact figures especially any forecast by an agency that benefits from that forecast being good. If Brave makes Scotland £120m then brilliant but I'll believe it when I see it. Their press release has already been shown to attribute an increase in visitors at one location to Brave when it was actually in line with increase at other non Brave attractions. Reinforces my view that there a bit of smoke and mirrors going on and my doubts were perfectly logical. Only posted on it because people were talking about it as if the benefit had actually happened. It hasn't, it's a forecast and in my view a questionable one. No idea what it's got to do with independence either. According to your post above, apparently Brave is causing things to "under perform"! And what its got to do with independence is that the Scottish Government spent £7 million promoting Scotland to the world. This was criticised by Labour, with Jackie Baillie criticising it, and Anas Sarwar using it as an attack line in the debate last week. Promoting Scotland abroad = bad, according to your Unionists. And yet, here we are with boosts to visitor numbers. Cue some desperate deflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Just how desperate are you to turn this into a bad news story? It was tongue in cheek you fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roverthemoon Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 Promoting Scotland abroad = bad, according to your Unionists. They really are evil c***s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeGas Posted September 10, 2013 Share Posted September 10, 2013 "two of the places and landscapes that inspired some of the locations and scenes in the film have already seen a rise in visitors. The cliff top ruins of Dunottar Castle, near Stonehaven, had 16% more visits this summer than the same time last year. Callanish Stones, which were visited by writers and artists from animation studio Pixar during a fact finding tour of Scotland, was an inspiration for the film's ring of stones." This is something that has already happened. "US and Canadian tourists on Disney's Scotland: A Brave Adventure tour have spent time in the Kingsmill Hotel in Inverness, Edinburgh's Balmoral Hotel and Cuillin Hills Hotel on Skye. Disney said that hundreds of people have already booked for the 2014 tour." As is this. Sounds like a job for Rab C and his man crush pal Donald Trump. Just look at the magnificent job they achieved with the golf course and within budget too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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