Independence - how would you vote?

[Enigma]

I've followed this thread on and off however this is the quiestest spell I can remember for the Unionists.

Hardly a peep in almost a fortnight.

Is their Weaponry empty?

The unionists have played their cards too early. That much is clear. The Yes campaign still have an ace up their sleeve with the white paper.

[Colkitto]

The unionists have played their cards too early. That much is clear. The Yes campaign still have an ace up their sleeve with the white paper.

Been saying it for months, but who cares if you are ahead in the polls right now it doesn't mean diddly squat.

Too many on here thought the referendum was won because of the polls.

Better Together have been trying to remain in front since the campaigns were launched. They are now running out of scarestories and have no positive case for the Union.

White Paper will be released next month. Better Together shitting it

[Reverend Maynard]

I'm bored on the train so just to make the journey more interesting a question for all the nats

" what's so bad about being in the union?"

[Baxter Parp]

I'm bored on the train so just to make the journey more interesting a question for all the nats" what's so bad about being in the union?"

Have you not been paying attention?

[Reverend Maynard]

Have you not been paying attention?

Fair comment, no!

I'm not "into" politics so haven't been following this thread/ the wider debate with the level of interest that many on here have. I'm not in any political parties or undertake political activities in my spare time.

I've never voted SNP before as I've alway been sceptical , hence my question. Arguably its my vote/ folk like me that need won over to make it a resounding yes next year.

If its a clear cut argument, my question should be easy to answer.

[vikingTON]

Bzzt, sorry, this isn't actually a 'YesScotland' campaign thread. Therefore no-one is posting solely for your entertainment (except, presumably Reynard given his recent supply of laugh-a-minute material), and no-one's interested in your 'I'm really important to the debate, convince me' claptrap.

There are far too many morons right now who think that they somehow deserve special coddling or individual policy incentives in order to win their vote over. Read up on the basic situation or continue to be ignorant, your choice.

[Reverend Maynard]

Policies Scotland doesn't want being forced upon us due to a right wing government that does not represent what Scotland wants and needs for starters.

What policies does "Scotland" want?

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Dismantling the unionist pish one item at a time sadly doesn't necessarily mean support for Independence will increase.

Friend of a friend was telling me all state education would be abolished in an Indy Scotland the other day. He's genuinely the third or fourth person I've heard saying this. Don't know where the majority of people are getting their 'information' from but the facts seem sadly lost on this debate.

[Reverend Maynard]

Bzzt, sorry, this isn't actually a 'YesScotland' campaign thread. Therefore no-one is posting solely for your entertainment (except, presumably Reynard given his recent supply of laugh-a-minute material), and no-one's interested in your 'I'm really important to the debate, convince me' claptrap.

There are far too many morons right now who think that they somehow deserve special coddling or individual policy incentives in order to win their vote over. Read up on the basic situation or continue to be ignorant, your choice.[/

You got out the wrong side of bed this morning.

Never said I was important. But " floating voters" need to be convinced , no?

[Mr. Bojangles]

If you're happy with neo-liberal London-centric governance, and that the rest of the UK seem to view Scotland as a parasite feeding on the sweat of English labour: the union is fine.

We're not running at a surplus, but as a percentage of GDP we pay more to the exchequer than we receive from Westminster in return. And that doesn't take into account 'national' projects such as Crossrail, HS-2, Trident etc which are paid for before our pocket money is taken out..

I could go on, but if you're not really into politics it won't interest you, Fundamentally, this is about whether you believe Scotland is different to the rest of the UK politically. I believe that generally people here are left of centre while England appears to be swinging wildly to the right. That will create strains that are only going to get worse between our countries. Better by far to be good neighbours in the way Canada (leftish) and America (extremely right) are than to be constantly bickering/ignored.

[vikingTON]

You got out the wrong side of bed this morning.

Never said I was important. But " floating voters" need to be convinced , no?

Not by me. I'm entitled to consider those who after six years of a SNP administration, well into a referendum campaign for Scotland's first exercise of political sovereignty for 300+ years who haven't done so much as a jot of basic research on the issue to be lost causes who shouldn't really be entitled to vote for anything more important than the winner of The X Factor.

'Floating voters' are morons with a vastly overrated sense of importance.

[Jamaldo]

Not by me. I'm entitled to consider those who after six years of a SNP administration, well into a referendum campaign for Scotland's first exercise of political sovereignty for 300+ years who haven't done so much as a jot of basic research on the issue to be lost causes who shouldn't really be entitled to vote for anything more important than the winner of The X Factor.

'Floating voters' are morons with a vastly overrated sense of importance.

Well said.

Anyone who goes into that voting booth and votes No after doing absolutely f**k all research into the matter is a scumbag quite frankly.

[Reverend Maynard]

Not by me. I'm entitled to consider those who after six years of a SNP administration, well into a referendum campaign for Scotland's first exercise of political sovereignty for 300+ years who haven't done so much as a jot of basic research on the issue to be lost causes who shouldn't really be entitled to vote for anything more important than the winner of The X Factor.

'Floating voters' are morons with a vastly overrated sense of importance.

I'm entitled to consider those who consider themselves well informed but then can't be bothered to try to win the argument rather smug and self satisfied, and certainly a group I'm glad I'm not a part of.

[John Lambies Doos]

I'm entitled to consider those who consider themselves well informed but then can't be bothered to try to win the argument rather smug and self satisfied, and certainly a group I'm glad I'm not a part of.

A massive opportunity presents itself. An optimistic opportunity to be bold and run our own affairs. Are you going to turn round to your kids and grandkids, many yrs from now, and say.. I shat it and voted no?

[Swampy]

To be fair to Reverend Maynard, I don't altogether blame people for not being interested. The media in Scotland has drawn such a laughably one-sided sketch of the 'debate' that it is hard for the disinterested observer to have any idea of what's actually going on.

Then again, that's what Yes Scotland is for.

Anyway, to answer the question of "what's so bad about the union?" Well, I differ from many supporters of independence in that my main motivation is getting away from the Westminster model, rather than towards a Scottish model, so I don't mind answering this question.

The Westminster system right now sees the government of the entire UK determined by a tiny number of swing constituencies, mostly in central/southern England, and national manifestos are written to appeal to these groups. I think the PR system in Scotland (which would surely remain after independence) is far healthier.

I think the Cabinet and Privy Council system of government in Westminster lends itself to hugely undemocratic decision-making, and Scotland often bears the brunt of it.

That's the institutional side. Then there's the political side.

The falsification of Scotland's oil prospects in the 70s set Scotland 20 years back on the road to autonomy, and there's still been no hint of apology for this. In fact there is a great deal of evidence that actively harming Scottish interests is a vote-winner down south (c.f. a significant majority of Tory MPs polled believe that there needs to be a reset of balance between 'English' interests and Scottish ones, and that since devolution Scotland has benefitted 'too much'.)

I think that Unionists in general are absolutely delighted at anything that penalises Scotland, such as Michael Moore trying to undermine Scottish interests overseas in his former capacity as Secretary of State for Scotland.

I find the obsession with 'foreignness' and borders of the Unionists - and this is a very mainstream view, not some fringe lunatics - to be most frightening of all.

I know that it's not a direct comparison because inertia and institutional continuity are important, but if you switch the situation around and say "would an independent Scotland join the Union?" then I can't imagine a single compelling reason for saying 'yes' to that.

[harry94]

I met a couple of twins at the union recently who are studying politics and got speaking to them about the referendum. When they asked me what way I would be voting I softly told them I'm currently on the yes side but would accept more devolution. What followed was frightening as one of the twins reacted badly.

*Massive gasp*

"WHAT ALEX SALMOND IS GOING TO CLOSE THE SCHOOLS?!"

"No he's not. Scotland currently run our own education system and there is no reason to suggest this would change in independence"

"But you do realise that if you get sick you'd have to pay thousands and be left for dead?!"

"No that is like the schools and we have a more successful health system than in the rest of the UK at the moment. This is also run from Holyrood"

"But there will be no pound and we'd have to use the euro and have no money"

"Well that's more complicated but..."

"AND THEY WON'T EVEN LET US INTO THE EU!"

"But you just said we'd have to use the euro?"

"Yeah but that's only if we're lucky"

"I think you should maybe do a bit more reading on the subject"

"People like you are going to destroy this country and it scares me to think you could do this to a fellow human being" *both storm off*

I seriously haven't made that up. On the plus side a few of my friends started asking me some questions and we got talking a bit and debated things. They were fairly open minded (but hadn't thought about it) and were as shocked as me at the exchange. I think I'm studying the wrong course.

[Reverend Maynard]

If you're happy with neo-liberal London-centric governance, and that the rest of the UK seem to view Scotland as a parasite feeding on the sweat of English labour: the union is fine.

We're not running at a surplus, but as a percentage of GDP we pay more to the exchequer than we receive from Westminster in return. And that doesn't take into account 'national' projects such as Crossrail, HS-2, Trident etc which are paid for before our pocket money is taken out..

I could go on, but if you're not really into politics it won't interest you, Fundamentally, this is about whether you believe Scotland is different to the rest of the UK politically. I believe that generally people here are left of centre while England appears to be swinging wildly to the right. That will create strains that are only going to get worse between our countries. Better by far to be good neighbours in the way Canada (leftish) and America (extremely right) are than to be constantly bickering/ignored.

Interesting points. Financially my understanding is that post idependance our income vs expenditure will give or take balance out. This includes income from oil. So to build an oil fund ( a good idea) how will we continue to fund public service to the level that we have come to expect?

I don't think must folk in England are that different from us to be honest. South east may be an exception, but not the rest of the UK.

[Swampy]

I'm entitled to consider those who consider themselves well informed but then can't be bothered to try to win the argument rather smug and self satisfied, and certainly a group I'm glad I'm not a part of.

You are coming across as smug and self-satisfied, in fairness, expecting a thread of dozens of people to immediately bow down in thrall to the Floating Voter. This thread's gone over many of these points literally dozens of times. I think if you had a genuine interest in the debate you'd do a bit of reading first (not necessarily on this thread... in fact, preferably on other sites) before inserting yourself at the centre of it.

You need to remember that with perhaps three or four exceptions the people who post here aren't official campaigners and it's unrealistic to expect them to act as one.

[Jamaldo]

For Reverend Maynard's benefit:

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/4341-a-unionist-lexicon-an-a-z-of-unionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation

Get reading mate.

[Jamaldo]

I met a couple of twins at the union recently who are studying politics and got speaking to them about the referendum. When they asked me what way I would be voting I softly told them I'm currently on the yes side but would accept more devolution. What followed was frightening as one of the twins reacted badly.

*Massive gasp*

"WHAT ALEX SALMOND IS GOING TO CLOSE THE SCHOOLS?!"

"No he's not. Scotland currently run our own education system and there is no reason to suggest this would change in independence"

"But you do realise that if you get sick you'd have to pay thousands and be left for dead?!"

"No that is like the schools and we have a more successful health system than in the rest of the UK at the moment. This is also run from Holyrood"

"But there will be no pound and we'd have to use the euro and have no money"

"Well that's more complicated but..."

"AND THEY WON'T EVEN LET US INTO THE EU!"

"But you just said we'd have to use the euro?"

"Yeah but that's only if we're lucky"

"I think you should maybe do a bit more reading on the subject"

"People like you are going to destroy this country and it scares me to think you could do this to a fellow human being" *both storm off*

Kill them with fire.