Independence - how would you vote?

[Jacksgranda]

So how would an independent Scotland protect the oil fields? Half an aircraft carrier and a quarter of a frigate wouldn't get too far out of the harbour.

ETA: In the context that the Royal Navy can't do it at the present time, so and even further reduced Royal Navy (after Scotland gets her share of the boats) won't be able to do it, even if it wanted to, what would the Scottish Navy protect them with.

[renton]

So how would an independent Scotland protect the oil fields? Half an aircraft carrier and a quarter of a frigate wouldn't get too far out of the harbour.

Protection of the oil fields was principally a job of the Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft, now since scrapped by the MoD. We'd probably have to buy something off the shelf, probably the US Orion aircraft to do the job. Keep one or two of the T23 frigates or build a few corvettes for sea lane patrol. It doesn't have to be a large force, even any force would be better than current UK contribution to the GIUK gap....

[~~~]

So how would an independent Scotland protect the oil fields?

[Jacksgranda]

Protection of the oil fields was principally a job of the Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft, now since scrapped by the MoD. We'd probably have to buy something off the shelf, probably the US Orion aircraft to do the job. Keep one or two of the T23 frigates or build a few corvettes for sea lane patrol. It doesn't have to be a large force, even any force would be better than current UK contribution to the GIUK gap....

I suppose it depends how the "assets" are divied up - I suppose Scotland would get 10+% ish, want would that get you? Or would you take cash in lieu of hardware in order to build these "few" corvettes? How many are a few? 4? 6? What would that cost?

[Jacksgranda]

That would only work if they had flippers...

[Jamaldo]

Mark McNaught destroys Ed Balls in this article from NewsnetScotland:

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/8135-hank-the-hallucination-to-ed-balls-qdudeget-realq

[~~~]

That would only work if they had flippers...

[Jacksgranda]

The stakes would puncture that before you could get out of the harbour...

[renton]

I suppose it depends how the "assets" are divied up - I suppose Scotland would get 10+% ish, want would that get you? Or would you take cash in lieu of hardware in order to build these "few" corvettes? How many are a few? 4? 6? What would that cost?

If given the option? Take the cash. The number you quote is probably about right for a general purpose frigate size vessel. YOu take the cash becuase it allows us to purchase stuff that makes more sense for us: The Panavia Tornados are pretty long in the tooth, and the Eurofighter Typhoon is bigger and more complex than ideally we need - something like the Saab Gripen would be a better fit.

[Jacksgranda]

I suppose it depends how the "assets" are divied up - I suppose Scotland would get 10+% ish, want would that get you? Or would you take cash in lieu of hardware in order to build these "few" corvettes? How many are a few? 4? 6? What would that cost?

If given the option? Take the cash. The number you quote is probably about right for a general purpose frigate size vessel. YOu take the cash becuase it allows us to purchase stuff that makes more sense for us: The Panavia Tornados are pretty long in the tooth, and the Eurofighter Typhoon is bigger and more complex than ideally we need - something like the Saab Gripen would be a better fit.

So that would be 5 then?

How much would that cost - 6 frigates and "some" Saab Gripens?

[renton]

So that would be 5 then?

How much would that cost - 6 frigates and "some" Saab Gripens?

I read a while back that a T23 frigate came in at about 170 million a pop. Pretty cheap, relatively speaking in comparison to some of the navy hardware. Unit prices are variable depending on how much of something you build. The Gripen, I don't know, but saab offered 24 of them to Romania with maintenance and logistical support for £1.3 billion. Canada was offered 65 of them plus a 40 year maintenance contract 'for under £6 billion'. Aircraft tend to be some of the most expensive capital costs. Scotland would probably need around 24 of them (a couple of squadrons).

Big ships and aircraft represent the probable biggest one off capital costs we'd incur.

[Jamaldo]

New scare story then: Scotland would not be able to defend the oil fields they have.

It's a legitimate worry. After all, Norway have famously had problems defending their oil fie.....oh wait. No, no they haven't.

[Gordon EF]

So how would an independent Scotland protect the oil fields? Half an aircraft carrier and a quarter of a frigate wouldn't get too far out of the harbour.

ETA: In the context that the Royal Navy can't do it at the present time, so and even further reduced Royal Navy (after Scotland gets her share of the boats) won't be able to do it, even if it wanted to, what would the Scottish Navy protect them with.

Can you give me a quick run down of how every country with oil fields within their maritime borders protects them please. Give us a general indication of how many ships, subs, aircraft carriers each one has and how many of each they would need to effectively 'protect' their fields.

After that, maybe you can give us a list of countries which, in any kind of reality a sane person could imagine, would attack an independent Scotland's oil fields.

Then maybe you could tell us how, in pratical terms, an inability to protect the oil fields is any better than even less of a non-ability to protect them.

Also, can you provide an exhaustive list of all the wars and battles of the last 50 years between western democracies over oil fields. I think once I can see this list for myself, I'll have a better idea of exactly what is needed to protect oil fields in the North Sea. I'd be particulalry interested in the detail of all the battles Norway must have fought to retain control of its fields.

If you can't answer these questions sensibly then please refrain from asking ludicrous questions in future, thanks.

[Jacksgranda]

I read a while back that a T23 frigate came in at about 170 million a pop. Pretty cheap, relatively speaking in comparison to some of the navy hardware. Unit prices are variable depending on how much of something you build. The Gripen, I don't know, but saab offered 24 of them to Romania with maintenance and logistical support for £1.3 billion. Canada was offered 65 of them plus a 40 year maintenance contract 'for under £6 billion'. Aircraft tend to be some of the most expensive capital costs. Scotland would probably need around 24 of them (a couple of squadrons).

Big ships and aircraft represent the probable biggest one off capital costs we'd incur.

O.K., thanks for the reply, seems like a fair bit of money but could a lot of it (the expense) be covered when the assets are split up and Scotland takes cash instead of hardware?

[Jamaldo]

Jacksgranda is quite clearly fighting back the tears knowing Scotland has a great chance of becoming independent and Northern Ireland has next to no chance of ever achieving the same thing.

Shame.

[LinkinFighter]

Norn Ireland

[wirez]

A proposal for a Scottish Defence Force as outlined last year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19955309

Also with an added bonus of a £1.5 billion saving per year

[Jacksgranda]

Can you give me a quick run down of how every country with oil fields within their maritime borders protects them please. Give us a general indication of how many ships, subs, aircraft carriers each one has and how many of each they would need to effectively 'protect' their fields.

After that, maybe you can give us a list of countries which, in any kind of reality a sane person could imagine, would attack an independent Scotland's oil fields.

Then maybe you could tell us how, in pratical terms, an inability to protect the oil fields is any better than even less of a non-ability to protect them.

Also, can you provide an exhaustive list of all the wars and battles of the last 50 years between western democracies over oil fields. I think once I can see this list for myself, I'll have a better idea of exactly what is needed to protect oil fields in the North Sea. I'd be particulalry interested in the detail of all the battles Norway must have fought to retain control of its fields.

If you can't answer these questions sensibly then please refrain from asking ludicrous questions in future, thanks.

Wasn't me who brought up "protecting" the oil fields:

"After years of neglect, the UK has already left Scotland poorly defended even by peacetime standards. The steady stream of defence cuts, relentless migration of defence capability south due to English pork barrel politics and disproportionate emphasis on overseas operations have seen to this. The impotent MoD response to the December 2011 incident where a Russian Aircraft Carrier battle group approached the Moray Firth indicates that (for all its supposed might) the Royal Navy is failing to maintain even a single major warship on routine patrol in Scottish waters and is leaving our prize North Sea oil and gas platforms undefended."

Quite frankly, I couldn't care less whether the U.K. or an independent Scotland protect the North sea oil fields or not, according to you they don't need protected, according to the Glasgow Herald they aren't protected at the moment, according to renton they might/should be protected and that would cost a fair bit as Scotland would basically be starting a Naval force from scratch as the present Naval forces are inadequate/inappropriate for the task, although a lot of the money needed could come from Scotland's share of UK (defence) assets and assets in general.

Do you think Scotland won't have any Defence Forces at all?

I don't see what you're getting so snippy about.

[Jacksgranda]

Jacksgranda is quite clearly fighting back the tears knowing Scotland has a great chance of becoming independent and Northern Ireland has next to no chance of ever achieving the same thing.

Shame.

Oh aye, devastated.

Scotland wants and achieves independence - good.

Scotland doesn't want independence and remains in the Union - good.

If the people of Northern Ireland ever believe independence is for them, I'm sure we would get it - maybe quicker than we would want!

[DeeGas]

What hire an anti semitic racist Australian to lead you.

Funny old move,but to be fair probably better than Rab C and less anti English.