Independence - how would you vote?

[Michael W]

Scotland put in 9.9% of UK taxes and received 9.3% of UK spending over 2011-12 and that's not a debated fact. Maybe I phrased it wrong and should have said Scotland pays more into the union in taxation (instead of Scots alone).

UKIP are polling highly enough to get more seats than the Lib Dems in the next election and are projected to be the third party by most polls. I'd agree with your last point but it is in the UKIP and BNP manifesto to scrap the Scottish parliament.

I can't recall if that was correct or not without looking at the GERS figures again (not a debate I want to invoke again given the arguments it caused over what was or wasn't included in the figures), but working on the assumption that's correct, it doesn't mean Scots are taxed more highly. I'm sure the figures for what was collected in Edinburgh would be higher per person than Glasgow given the wage discrepancies, but again that doesn't mean people in Edinburgh are more highly taxed.

I can't recall UKIP pledging to scrap Holyrood at the last SP election, though they most certainly did in 2007, as I remember their leaflets proclaiming 'Sack the MSPs'.

As for the BNP they are utterly finished as even a protest vote. They got their MEPs on the back of a reccesion and MP expenses being revealed, and it's been a huge downward slide since. They're done for, aren't a credible political threat and are set to join the English Democrats, Veritas and Solidarity in amongst the political dustbin of failed parties.

[Frosty]

I like the lack of Braveheart in Douglas Young!

Let's have a film about this particular snivelling shit and have it on the box a couple of times next year,say February and early September.

"Freeeeeeeeeeeeeedom!"

Or is "Do f**k all and let the Nazi take our freeeeeeeeeeeeeedom" more appropriate!

You are making a mistake if you automatically assume conscientious objectors are automatically cowards. I suspect it takes a great deal of bravery to stand up and say your belief set means you are a conscientious objector.

In WWI in particular a lot of conscientious objectors were stretcher bearers which if you were operating on the frontline had a higher mortality rate than if you were carrying a weapon.

Not sure what the mortality rate was for playing the harmonium in Saughton though.

[Michael W]

As I'm unable to edit my last post, I'd also add that the Lib Dems have many seats they're strong in (north of Scotland and rural seats in the South of England). UKIP don't have that luxury and suffer from a vote spread out evenly rather than focused in certain areas.

Farage himself knows FPTP is a nightmare for them, and whilst he won't admit it, I'm sure he knows deep down they are unlikely to win a seat.

[Frosty]

Has frosty explained himself yet, or is he still muttering cryptic hints?

I'm not sure what you want explained - I though it was pretty clear what I was saying from the posts I've made.

I suppose it's progress from you just saying that someone has said something that suits your argument when they have said nothing of the sort.

[xbl]

I'm not sure what you want explained - I though it was pretty clear what I was saying from the posts I've made.

I suppose it's progress from you just saying that someone has said something that suits your argument when they have said nothing of the sort.

Why do you keep complaining that people are making wrong assumptions and using the wrong figures? Provide them yourself and explain the context. Originally, you said that the SNP shouldn't make comments about the Daily Heil, based on WW2. Now we have some mutterings that someone from the SNP was apparently in prison for a bit of WW2, as were others from other political parties. But all mysteriously without detail. What is the context here that you keep trying to get at? What is your point?

[harry94]

I can't recall if that was correct or not without looking at the GERS figures again (not a debate I want to invoke again given the arguments it caused over what was or wasn't included in the figures), but working on the assumption that's correct, it doesn't mean Scots are taxed more highly. I'm sure the figures for what was collected in Edinburgh would be higher per person than Glasgow given the wage discrepancies, but again that doesn't mean people in Edinburgh are more highly taxed.

I can't recall UKIP pledging to scrap Holyrood at the last SP election, though they most certainly did in 2007, as I remember their leaflets proclaiming 'Sack the MSPs'.

As for the BNP they are utterly finished as even a protest vote. They got their MEPs on the back of a reccesion and MP expenses being revealed, and it's been a huge downward slide since. They're done for, aren't a credible political threat and are set to join the English Democrats, Veritas and Solidarity in amongst the political dustbin of failed parties.

Fair enough we'll leave that discussion for another day. I was misleading with suggesting it was individual people paying more in. I meant total revenue.

With UKIP their last manifesto suggested more that they would change the structure of the Scottish and Welsh parliaments to solve the West Lothian question but did imply powers would be removed. BNP are dead but their support could drift towards UKIP.

My point was that taking powers away from Scotland and Wales could win votes from ignorant voters.

As I'm unable to edit my last post, I'd also add that the Lib Dems have many seats they're strong in (north of Scotland and rural seats in the South of England). UKIP don't have that luxury and suffer from a vote spread out evenly rather than focused in certain areas.

Farage himself knows FPTP is a nightmare for them, and whilst he won't admit it, I'm sure he knows deep down they are unlikely to win a seat.

That's a very good point actually that I never considered. UKIP are a party that would benefit strongly from proportional representation. I do think when the time comes UKIP will pick up a few seats and the Lib Dems will recover a bit. It would be interesting to see what a hung parliament would result in next time.

[Michael W]

Fair enough we'll leave that discussion for another day. I was misleading with suggesting it was individual people paying more in. I meant total revenue.

Fair enough, we all sometimes don't say things the way we intended.

With UKIP their last manifesto suggested more that they would change the structure of the Scottish and Welsh parliaments to solve the West Lothian question but did imply powers would be removed. BNP are dead but their support could drift towards UKIP.

My point was that taking powers away from Scotland and Wales could win votes from ignorant voters.

That's a very good point actually that I never considered. UKIP are a party that would benefit strongly from proportional representation. I do think when the time comes UKIP will pick up a few seats and the Lib Dems will recover a bit. It would be interesting to see what a hung parliament would result in next time.

Also fair - admittedly I didn't read UKIP's last manifesto, but I do think they need to elaborate on what changes they have in mind. I can see why that would be viewed with scepticism.

If next year's vote is a 'No', the next UK election will be very interesting. The Lib Dems have recovered from their low, but where that vote goes will be interesting. There is a high chance the SNP and the Conservatives will make gains in the rural seats.

As far as England goes, a fracturing LD vote combined with UKIP hoovering up some votes could really, really cause some damage to the Conservatives.

[sons superhero]

I still believe that the media requested an estimate from police early on the day and the media didn't ask for an update then stuck to the early figure.

On my phone so hard to produce a link, the last update on the bbc site report on the day was at 13:32hrs.

[sons superhero]

Ok, I'll bite - how are Scots taxed more than those down south?

As for a Conservative/UKIP coalition removing powers, that isn't going to happen for two reasons:

1) there is no way these parties will form a coalition, and UKIP will be lucky to get a seat.

2) Both those parties are pro-Union and bright enough to know doing so would be suicidal to their cause and accelerate demand for independence from those happy with the status quo or previously undecided.

Already UKIP policy to effectively abolish the Scottish Parliament and replace it with a commitee.

[Reynard]

Already UKIP policy to effectively abolish the Scottish Parliament and replace it with a commitee.

I'm 100% in agreement with this. It could also be staffed by volunteers that don't need to be paid. We could flog the dreadful Holyrood flat pack building to unsuspecting Johnny Foreigners to use as a hostel for the homeless and bin all those useless fucker MSPs and their spads and assorted hangers on that trough the f**k out of the taxpayer.

Its one of the few policies UKIP are very sound on.

In the old days everything the holyrood drivel deals with was done by Michael Forsyth and an assistant. Much cheaper and much better.

[Davi3j]

I name my official sources. Nicola Sturgeon - who did she consult?

And here we go again.

You embarrassed yourself on this before.

Please outline which "advisers and experts" Sturgeon relied upon. The last time you claimed you could find this out easily, but you just couldn't be bothered doing so. Please actually provide evidence to support this utterly baseless claim this time.

Lord Mackenzie-Stuart, (the only Scottish judge to have been President of the European Court of Justice)

Eamonn Gallagher, (who is a former director-general of the European Commission and ambassador to the United Nations in New York)

FMQ 10^th November 2011.

[Jamaldo]

I think Reynard's overall views can be summed up like this:

- He doesn't want Scotland to control anything. He wants everything controlled by Westminster. He's previously said that he didn't even want devolution, which confirms this. In simple terms, he likes being "Westminster's bitch".

- He hates anything Scottish. In other words, he's a self-loathing Scot (The worst kind of Scot).

- He thinks everyone on benefits, regardless of the circumstances which lead to them being on benefits, is scum.

I wouldn't be surprised if he supported the whole of Scotland being bulldozed so that the English middle and upper-classes can have an extra place to play croquet and tennis.

[carrier bag]

Interesting to see first of all that "Better Together" have nothing to do with it and secondly, it's car parking charges for parking on public property. Presumably you'll be opposing all parking meters everywhere operated by local authorities now? You pay more to park near the Science Centre than that.

Oh course because people go to the Science Centre to exercise.

Putting up barriers to exercise is one of the main reasons why we're the sick man of Europe, visiting the beach is surely one of the best ways to improve physical and mental wellbeing. Taxing it, is utterly wrong. No one is surprising to see the better together bedfellows siding together on this one.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

I think the separitists have made their plans.The 'white paper' release,the one on ones (if any),the "big push" .

Their timing is vital for their cause.

I reckon it'll start with the "White Paper",they can't leave it too late or they'll lose too much credibility,but I think they'll release it as late as possible.

Then will come one on ones ,the last big pro inde rally,a massive Rab C speech,loads on YT,FB much happy go lucky pro Scottish film,tv.

They'll try very hard.

Non World Cup qualification for Scotland actually helps the Union,of that i'm sure.

There's nothing like war and a World Cup to unite a people and see them waving the flag.

Braveheart will naturally be played a few times with quotes from the film and real ones from history being thrown about,with maybe the big pro inde media show beginning approximately beginning of September.

The Union will have the Royals,how we beat Adolf and Boneapart together,the Olympics,film,music etc.anything where the UK has performed well together.

Prince George,Kate and William are big.

Queen Elizabeth will have many happy memories of her relationshiop with Scotland.

It all adds up.

Where does this Unionist obsession with Braveheart come from? 99% of time you hear it mentioned, it's from some Britnat fud saying how the 'seperatists' always go on about it. Bizarre.

As for the last few paragraphs, boke. It's absolutely tragic that 'Kate and Wills' popping out another benefit junky will form some people's opinion in voting no. Sadly, you're actually right.

[~~~]

I think Reynard's overall views can be summed up like this:

- He doesn't want Scotland to control anything. He wants everything controlled by Westminster. He's previously said that he didn't even want devolution, which confirms this. In simple terms, he likes being "Westminster's bitch".

- He hates anything Scottish. In other words, he's a self-loathing Scot (The worst kind of Scot).

- He thinks everyone on benefits, regardless of the circumstances which lead to them being on benefits, is scum.

I wouldn't be surprised if he supported the whole of Scotland being bulldozed so that the English middle and upper-classes can have an extra place to play croquet and tennis.

He's basically Michael Kelly

[~~~]

Where does this Unionist obsession with Braveheart come from? 99% of time you hear it mentioned, it's from some Britnat fud saying how the 'seperatists' always go on about it. Bizarre. As for the last few paragraphs, boke. It's absolutely tragic that 'Kate and Wills' popping out another benefit junky will form some people's opinion in voting no. Sadly, you're actually right.

Most Unionists are embarrassed with anything remotely seen as Scottish.

[Reynard]

I think Reynard's overall views can be summed up like this:

- He doesn't want Scotland to control anything. He wants everything controlled by Westminster. He's previously said that he didn't even want devolution, which confirms this. In simple terms, he likes being "Westminster's bitch".

- He hates anything Scottish. In other words, he's a self-loathing Scot (The worst kind of Scot).

- He thinks everyone on benefits, regardless of the circumstances which lead to them being on benefits, is scum.

I wouldn't be surprised if he supported the whole of Scotland being bulldozed so that the English middle and upper-classes can have an extra place to play croquet and tennis.

I think you've had a knee jerk reaction there.

The reason I DIDN'T want devolution was because it created an uneccessary extra tier of politicians that we had been doing fine without. I'll give you an example after qualifying this statement. I don't think politicians are a force for ood, regardless of which geographical location the are sited in. But anyway we had moved from a system of government when in 1992 I had four elected politicians "representing" me. I had a local councillor that I knew and knew where to find. I had a regional councillor who I knew and knew how to get to him. I had an MP THAT I knew and an MEP who basically did a bit of swanning around in Brussel. We got rid of the regional councils and moved towards unitary authorites which were a lot smaller and a bit more local. I argued for making that a lot smaller still but although there was plenty of support for this, they went for the slightly bigger authorities because they felt it worked better. We then binned the regiojal councils, much to the chagrin of the Labour c***s who thought they had jobs for life. I was my mates election agent at the very last round of elections for that and wrote his speech for him where he utterly lambasted the , by then, outgoing cooncillors and we got a police escort out of Cumnock town hall because they were so ruffled.

So at that stage we were down to just three elected representatives looking after my every whim and caring a lot about me. Not so bad. Maybe concentrate on getting shot of the MEP next as they do f**k all of any use to anybody. Then canon Kenyon Wright and a whole load of Labour types began to agitate for Scotlands representation being a bit shit because a whole load of their c***s had lost their jobs. Thew pressure then ramped up for a devolved assembly blah de blah. and it was duly delivered. So then we had some elections and we went from me being "represented" by three w****r politicians and their assortment of weirdo hangers on, to ELEVEN politicians and their water bearers and paper shufflers. Did I feel better represented? Did I f**k. I actually don't have a local councillor either, I have about three of the fuckers representing "my ward".

So, while I can appreciate a lot of the weans in here finding this all terribly exciting, I have to say it fucking isn't. At all. None of it is. None of them will make your life better, none of them have the answers to your own set of life problems. They can all get themselves to f**k.

I'm looking forward to my green dot from Enrico, who I think will only be happy if Scotland is spray painted green and some plastic shamrocks get scattered liberally around.

[Jamaldo]

He's basically Michael Kelly

Wasn't actually familiar with this guy but I've had a quick look at his work. Your comparison is apt.

[Reynard]

Oh course because people go to the Science Centre to exercise.

Putting up barriers to exercise is one of the main reasons why we're the sick man of Europe, visiting the beach is surely one of the best ways to improve physical and mental wellbeing. Taxing it, is utterly wrong. No one is surprising to see the better together bedfellows siding together on this one.

There are stairs to climb if the lift is broken. Thats a huge amount of exercise to the average Weeg

[~~~]

I'm looking forward to my green dot from Enrico, who I think will only be happy if Scotland is spray painted green and some plastic shamrocks get scattered liberally around.