Independence - how would you vote?

[H_B]

Which in keeping with this thread means that he will disappear for a while and come back with "Anyway, we've been told we are getting none of the assets, so why SHOULD we take on the debt" in a couple of days time.

Predictable as it is pointless. I guess a sign that this thread has pretty much played itself out at this stage.

[Mr.Bojangles]

Up until now all the chat about the share of the debt has been "The most equitable way to decide on the share of debt is population share." as the starting point in any negotiation.

I don't disagree with that, but it's not where the negotiation would start. Since it's unlikely that Scotland will want to keep a nuclear submarine, or demand that an equitable share by value of the contents of the British museums/art galleries be redistributed, it's highly likely that the debt will be lower than the rUK by population share.

Actually, maybe we should demand that art thing.

[H_B]

If Independence was actually a possibility I expect the SNP would draw up something akin to the Belanger-Campeau proposal as it's starting point for negotiations.

The whole process of valuing assets, different types of assets and debts, particularly pension related debts would be an absolute minefield. It would take ages.

[YOGI IS GOD]

[AberdeenBud]

[AberdeenBud]

[DeeGas]

That's a pretty good effort,but people will see the attempt to obliterate their English and Welsh friends.

It aso inadvertently shows the disgusting border the Scottish Nationalist Party want to create.

The Scottish Brits will never allow this to happen.

Whatever Salmond says,he cannot stop how millions of voters see themselves.

Scottish and British.

Better Together.

[speckled tangerine]

That's a pretty good effort,but people will see the attempt to obliterate their English and Welsh friends.

It aso inadvertently shows the disgusting border the Scottish Nationalist Party want to create.

The Scottish Brits will never allow this to happen.

Whatever Salmond says,he cannot stop how millions of voters see themselves.

Scottish and British.

Better Together.

The disgusting border is already there mate. Has been for many, many hundreds of years. Berwick upon Tweed shifted sides a dozen times but that's about it.

It is kinda handy how it IS there though, to demarcate all the different things we already have start and end. Like law, education, shit like that.

Must try harder Deegas. Disgusting border indeed!

[Ad Lib]

When the going gets tough, xbl fucks off.

Still no answer to post 7500.

Stand by. Give it 48 hours. "none of the assets, some of the debt, but don't worry we get to keep some of our sea". No analysis. No argument. No reasoning. Just distortion, repetition and mock incredulity.

[Guest The Phoenix]

Assets are things that the government physically owns or owns a transferable legal right to. Gold. Bricks. Mortar. Land. Shares in a company. Assets are not membership of international organisations or sovereign rights. These are both, to use the legal jargon, "delectus personae" or in layman's terms, specific to an individual with legal personality. They aren't rights "in things" but rights to do things in relations with other people and bodies. Here the golf-club analogy is a good one.

Imagine that a golf-club offers an Oil and Gas company, who sponsor them, free membership to all those who work within that company. Imagine then that a division of that company is subject to a management buy-out, becomes a different company, with no direct and continuing connection to the original company, and which is in no sense by continued agreement held to be liable for the continuing sponsorship. Are the people in this new company automatically entiled to free membership and bound by the members-rules of the golf-club? Of course not. They might want to sponsor the golf-club, and to reach their own agreement with them, but they forfeit the rights of membership at the moment they ceased to be part of a member, and ceased to share the duties with them under the terms of that arrangement.

The right to be a member of an international organisation is incumbent on your ratifying its treaties, often with the consent mechanisms provided by the organisation or its constituent members in the treaties themselves. This is why the whole international legal personality thing, that I have been banging on about, matters. For organisations like the EU, continuity of legal personality is critical to legal entitlement to automatic continued membership following an "independence event". Under no circumstances will Scotland inherit the international legal personality of the United Kingdom, though rUK most likely will do so.

The right to issue a bill of exchange (i.e. currency) is a sovereign right, not an asset. The value of that currency or bill of exchange will be underpinned by actual physical assets, but that's not the same thing. There absolutely will be negotiations about what share of the Bank of England's assets (note, not "the Bank of England", a body created by and part of the machinery of a sovereign state, but its "assets") Scotland should be entitled to, and whether that entitlement would take the form of physical ownership and division of those assets, or a right to the value of those assets, honoured some other way by the provision of something else.

So for example we might get the Bank of England's gold, but we might instead be given an equivalent reduction in our agreed liability arising out of the UK's national debt. Or an independent Scottish government might be paid in Bank of England notes, which as I've suggested before Scotland ought then to put into its own central bank and issue Scottish notes, to create a medium-term currency peg but also to have the institutions ready to have our own free-floating currency if need be at a whim. On things like government agencies, we wouldn't automatically own a share in them. To take your DVLA example, there would have to be an arrangement either to split it into two agencies, one operating in each state, or some sort of combined agreement to share a drivers' licencing scheme. The divvying up of test centres would probably be done in a common-sense manner: Scotland keeps all the centres in Scotland, rUK all those in rUK, and where services are combined at a fixed place, some sort of financial accommodation made to allow for shadow institutions to be set-up north of the border. It would mean organisational re-jigging and probably some redundancies here and there to reflect the new geographical needs of the organisations, but Scotland would get "its share" in terms of the value of, say, the physical buildings the DVLA have in some b*****d English backwater as their HQ, in order to set up their own.

Do you understand the differences yet? Literally no one is saying we'll get none of the assets, because that would be an absurd thing to say.

When the going gets tough, xbl fucks off.

Still no answer to post 7500.

Stand by. Give it 48 hours. "none of the assets, some of the debt, but don't worry we get to keep some of our sea". No analysis. No argument. No reasoning. Just distortion, repetition and mock incredulity.

TBF, he's probably still reading it.

[doulikefish]

TBF, he's probably still reading it.

ohhh thats flowery

[Newbornbairn]

Yep, spot the difference. This needs to go up billboards pronto.

The Tories want to be tougher on welfareLabour want to be tougher on welfare.

The Tories want to be tougher on immigration.Labour want to be tougher on immigration.

The Tories want to introduce means-testing for more benefits.Labour want to introduce means-testing for more benefits.

The Tories want to end free tuition in Scotland.Labour want to end free tuition in Scotland.

The Tories support workfare and want to extend it.Labour support workfare and want to extend it.

The Tory plan for cutting the deficit is a decade of brutal austerity.The Labour plan for cutting the deficit is a decade of brutal austerity.

The Tories want to spend tens of billions replacing Trident.Labour want to spend tens of billions replacing Trident.

The Tories introduced the bedroom tax for social rented tenants.Labour introduced the bedroom tax for private rented tenants.(And refuse to say they'll abolish it.)

The Tories don't plan to reintroduce the 50p income tax rate.Labour don't plan to reintroduce the 50p income tax rate.

The Tories have vague, non-specific, non-committal plans for devolution which offer more responsibilities rather than more powers, and which aren't supported by the party's Westminster MPs or leadership.Labour have vague, non-specific, non-committal plans for devolution which offer more responsibilities rather than more powers, and which aren't supported by the party's Westminster MPs or leadership.

So is the corollary -

The SNP want to increase the Welfare bill.

The SNP want more immigrants

The SNP want to give benefits to people who can afford to do without them

The SNP want students to get more free stuff

The SNP don't want to encourage people out of benefits.

The SNP will cut the deficit by borrowing more money

The SNP will continue to make a song and dance about no being able to afford a strategic deterrent

The SNP will make other people pay for some people to live in houses bigger than they need

The SNP will bring back a higher rate of tax even though they know this brings in less money.

Good luck with that manifesto, I'm out.

[Mr Rational]

See ya then, enjoy having the piss taken out of you by troughers down the road.

On that subject, I see Spud's in trouble with expenses.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/home-news/jim-murphy-named-among-27-mps-in-new-expenses-row.1350640850?_=670887513b5d162df9935dc82a37196171433584

[DeeGas]

The disgusting border is already there mate. Has been for many, many hundreds of years. Berwick upon Tweed shifted sides a dozen times but that's about it.

It is kinda handy how it IS there though, to demarcate all the different things we already have start and end. Like law, education, shit like that.

Must try harder Deegas. Disgusting border indeed!

I think because the map shows Scotland as separate from England and Wales it will work against the SNP.

Millions are happy with the Union.

Better Together.

[Mr Rational]

Explain how we are better together please. Give me a reason to remain, explain how we are going to solve problems.

Tom Farmer said that both sides need to up their games, it's not good enough that the yes campaign give vague promises, he also said its not good enough for no to just rubbish everything that yes puts out, he needs a positive case for remaining.

In yer own time, but before Christmas would be nice.

[vikingTON]

I think because the map shows Scotland as separate from England and Wales it will work against the SNP.

You must have a minor stroke when you pop open a history book or an atlas then.

Only joking: you've clearly never opened a history book in your life.

[Gordon EF]

I think because the map shows Scotland as separate from England and Wales it will work against the SNP.

Millions are happy with the Union.

Better Together.

To be fair, any correctly drawn map would do that.

[DeeGas]

Okay,i asked for that,but I know what I meant and i'ms ure you do too.

[DeeGas]

You must have a minor stroke when you pop open a history book or an atlas then.

Only joking: you've clearly never opened a history book in your life.

You actually have studied history hav'nt you?

[caleyjaggi]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/12/two-speed-britain-london-soars