Independence - how would you vote?

[Paulo Sergio]

I've posted up my reasoning before, but honestly, it is now looking extremely likely. If we crack 40% by the end of this year, its definitely won. The main independence momentum won't be until the final 2 or so months of the campaign, and anything before then is a bonus. We just need to make sure the no vote doesn't increase. And it isn't. Its gradually falling. If we hit 40% anytime before next January, then its over for the Unionists.

Here's hoping!

[sons superhero]

Nope. I'm simply not saying that he isn't one. That's for you to judge. You're his constituent.

You are justifying your colleagues actions in using the fact that she lived most of her life in Scotland as examples of carpetbagging and I take it this is wrong in your parties eyes. But your party does it as well, hypocrisy in your part and your parties.

[Paulo Sergio]

Ad Lib boring the arse out of the thread again too I see...

[Ad Lib]

Front page of the herald tomorrow promises to be a doozy...

m.facebook.com/home.php?__user=517496063#!/photo.php?fbid=458105080931450&id=199573770117917&set=a.233148850093742.56160.199573770117917&__user=517496063

Paddy Ashdown breaking ranks to show moral fibre unknown to the Lib Dems (north british division), and a bonus Michael Moore story!

Apologies for link quality, on my phone.

Good on Paddy.

If her biography is to be beleived she is a sudent enterprise advisor, she is active in Unison and is a youth officer with UWE Unison. She has supported a number of social projects in Bristol.

I don't care about her Union activities. What has she done in the ward. Not Bristol, but the ward. And what are these "projects" and what was her actual "support"?

You are justifying your colleagues actions in using the fact that she lived most of her life in Scotland as examples of carpetbagging and I take it this is wrong in your parties eyes. But your party does it as well, hypocrisy in your part and your parties.

A local Lib Dem Party in Bristol is not accountable for the selection process of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. They're responsible for making their own judgements in individual cases about the local credentials of individuals standing for office, in our party and others. It is not hypocrisy on my part in any respect. If you think Alan Beith lacks local credentials, I think it is entirely legitimate for you to issue campaign literature against him on that basis.

Carpetbagging isn't "wrong", but it can make you a less credible candidate, if your electorate values actual local action in the community. If other candidates think this is particularly important to a specific election, they are entirely within their rights to criticise the other candidates in this respect, Lib Dem, Tory, SNP, Labour, Green, UKIP, BNP, Cornish Nationalists, Plaid, DUP, SLDP, Alliance, Sinn Fein, UUP, or Independent.

[lichtgilphead]

Good on Paddy.

I don't care about her Union activities. What has she done in the ward. Not Bristol, but the ward. And what are these "projects" and what was her actual "support"?

A local Lib Dem Party in Bristol is not accountable for the selection process of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. They're responsible for making their own judgements in individual cases about the local credentials of individuals standing for office, in our party and others. It is not hypocrisy on my part in any respect. If you think Alan Beith lacks local credentials, I think it is entirely legitimate for you to issue campaign literature against him on that basis.

Carpetbagging isn't "wrong", but it can make you a less credible candidate, if your electorate values actual local action in the community. If other candidates think this is particularly important to a specific election, they are entirely within their rights to criticise the other candidates in this respect, Lib Dem, Tory, SNP, Labour, Green, UKIP, BNP, Cornish Nationalists, Plaid, DUP, SLDP, Alliance, Sinn Fein, UUP, or Independent.

Alan Beith definitely lacks local credentials in a discussion of Alan Reid's relevance (or lack of it) to Argyll & Bute.

Come to think about it, is Beith not an MP for an English constituency?

[Ad Lib]

Alan Beith definitely lacks local credentials in a discussion of Alan Reid's relevance (or lack of it) to Argyll & Bute.

Come to think about it, is Beith not an MP for an English constituency?

Aha, misread it! Read Alan Reid then! I confuse the two frequently because they both enjoy a paucity of personality.

[lichtgilphead]

Aha, misread it! Read Alan Reid then!

Aye. It's really easy to mistake Scottish LibDem politicians for English MP's.

I share your hurt.

[sons superhero]

Good on Paddy.

I don't care about her Union activities. What has she done in the ward. Not Bristol, but the ward. And what are these "projects" and what was her actual "support"?

A local Lib Dem Party in Bristol is not accountable for the selection process of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. They're responsible for making their own judgements in individual cases about the local credentials of individuals standing for office, in our party and others. It is not hypocrisy on my part in any respect. If you think Alan Beith lacks local credentials, I think it is entirely legitimate for you to issue campaign literature against him on that basis.

Carpetbagging isn't "wrong", but it can make you a less credible candidate, if your electorate values actual local action in the community. If other candidates think this is particularly important to a specific election, they are entirely within their rights to criticise the other candidates in this respect, Lib Dem, Tory, SNP, Labour, Green, UKIP, BNP, Cornish Nationalists, Plaid, DUP, SLDP, Alliance, Sinn Fein, UUP, or Independent.

Its Alan Reid by the way, theres not that many LibDem MP's in Scotland that you don't know who it is. Carpetbagging not good if somone else does it, ok if you do, no wait it is ok if they do but not if you say it isn't!!!!!!!!

I didn't say they were responsible for choosing LibDem candidates what are you talking about. Your hypocrosy is in justifying using it to attack someone but condone its use by parties including your own. Fucked up logic.

I say to you what did Alan Reid do for Argyll and Bute before he sat for Parliment. At least she is active in her own town. No wait she's only been staying there and I suppose active for 6 years.

[Ad Lib]

It Alan Reid by the way, theres not that many LibDem MP's in Scotland that you don't know who it is. Carpetbagging not good if somone else does, ok if you do!!!!!!!!

I didn't say carpetbagging was okay when we did it. I said it isn't something that is either "okay" or "not okay" to all situations, and that that's for individuals and individual campaign teams to judge. It's not okay when the Lib Dems do it, and if you think Alan Reid(!) is a carpetbagger then by all means feel free to say so and to campaign against him as such at the next General Election.

I didn't say they were responsible for choosing LibDem candidates what are you talking about. Your hypocrosy is in justifying using it to attack someone but condone its use by parties including your own. Fucked up logic.

I didn't say it was "justified" in that particular instance. I said it was, in principle, legitimate to attack individuals for not living in the relevant place in which they are standing if you believe it to be relevant to the strength of their candidacy. They do, so they mentioned it. If anyone thinks it relevant in any other situation, they may also do so. That includes when it's being "done" by the Liberal Democrats. But such is the nature of local political parties, that Bristol's Liberal Democrat local parties are not in any way responsible for the decisions taken by Scottish Liberal Democrats in respect of candidacy for MPs and specifically the local party of Argyll and Bute and vice versa. It's not "hypocritical" to disagree with those within your own party or to adopt different tactics from other local parties and to reach different judgments about what is an appropriate attack on your opponents.

I say to you what did Alan Reid do for Argyll and Bute before he sat for Parliment. At least she is active in her own town. No wait she's only been staying there and I suppose active for 6 years.

I have no idea what Alan Reid did for Argyll and Bute before he stood for Parliament. I don't know if the people of Argyll and Bute or the political parties there consider it important that their MP be from the area and an active historical local campaigner. If they do, then absolutely they should raise the weakness of Alan Reid's local links in their campaigning. If they don't then, they don't have to. That's their choice.

I don't care if she's active in her "town". Neither do the relevant Bristol Lib Dem party. They think it matters that she doesn't live in the constituency and they believe that whatever her activity in Bristol generally she has not been active and is not as strong a part of the relevant ward's community as their candidate. They're advertising that fact. That's fine. I'd expect all other political parties to do the same if they had stronger local candidates with a track record in the constituency or ward.

[sons superhero]

I don't care if she's active in her "town". Neither do the relevant Bristol Lib Dem party. They think it matters that she doesn't live in the constituency and they believe that whatever her activity in Bristol generally she has not been active and is not as strong a part of the relevant ward's community as their candidate. They're advertising that fact. That's fine. I'd expect all other political parties to do the same if they had stronger local candidates with a track record in the constituency or ward.

So if it is her track record in how active in the constituency or ward she is, why state she had lived most of her 23 years on this planet in Scotland. Remembering that she has spent the last 6 years in Bristol.

You may say she is inexperienced but criticising her for growing up in Scotland up to the age of 17 is bigoted.

[Ad Lib]

So if it is her track record in how active in the constituency or ward she is, why state she had lived most of her 23 years on this planet in Scotland. Remembering that she has spent the last 6 years in Bristol.

Because it's a convenient short-hand for demonstrating a lack of affinity with the ward. Standard campaign tactics. Candidates with particularly strong local credentials do this all the time to promote their candidacy over others.

ETA: it is about illustrating with something catchy that sums up the candidate as not the best local one. Pointing out the fact they don't live in the ward and haven't lived in the area for most of their life broadly illustrates that point succinctly.

[sons superhero]

Because it's a convenient short-hand for demonstrating a lack of affinity with the ward. Standard campaign tactics. Candidates with particularly strong local credentials do this all the time to promote their candidacy over others.

ETA: it is about illustrating with something catchy that sums up the candidate as not the best local one. Pointing out the fact they don't live in the ward and haven't lived in the area for most of their life broadly illustrates that point succinctly.

But you said 4 years was credible. She has spent nearly a third of her life in Bristol. But the local party brought up her being brought up in Scotland. Is it catchy then to use the fact she is Scottish as a negative.

[Ad Lib]

But you said 4 years was credible. She has spent a nearly a third of her life in Bristol. But the local party brought up her being brought up on Scotland.

No I didn't. I said that 4-5 years of active involvement in the ward or constituency and living a street away from it wasn't a comparable situation to being there for 2 years and living at the other side of the city. At no point did I say that 4 years was a sufficiency threshold in all circumstances for local credentials. It depends on who you're running against, what for, what their local credentials are, to what extent you think representation should focus on ward/constituency specific issues rather than city-wide or national issues etc.

At no point did I say that the local party were right to use this "not as local as our candidate" tactic. I don't know enough about the candidates in question to make an informed judgment on that, or the particular local conditions of that ward. All I have said is that the tactic isn't "anti-Scottish", because it's not. It's a classic "I'm more local than you" council election and is not, by any objective measure, proof of the Lib Dems being an "anti-Scottish" party.

[sons superhero]

No I didn't. I said that 4-5 years of active involvement in the ward or constituency and living a street away from it wasn't a comparable situation to being there for 2 years and living at the other side of the city. At no point did I say that 4 years was a sufficiency threshold in all circumstances for local credentials. It depends on who you're running against, what for, what their local credentials are, to what extent you think representation should focus on ward/constituency specific issues rather than city-wide or national issues etc.

At no point did I say that the local party were right to use this "not as local as our candidate" tactic. I don't know enough about the candidates in question to make an informed judgment on that, or the particular local conditions of that ward. All I have said is that the tactic isn't "anti-Scottish", because it's not. It's a classic "I'm more local than you" council election and is not, by any objective measure, proof of the Lib Dems being an "anti-Scottish" party.

You said active in the local community, that is very different from the ward. You said use something catchy, they used the fact she was brought up in Scotland which is made up of her years as a toddler, early school, primary school and secondary school. All her adult life so far has been in Bristol making the use of her Scottishness bigoted.

[sons superhero]

Lets put it another way. They said don't vote for her she went to school in Scotland. Bigoted no matter what way you look at it.

[Ad Lib]

You said active in the local community, that is very different from the ward.

Not in the context of that general point it isn't. I was giving you what I thought would be different considerations in different contexts where someone is a relative newcomer to a place. I wasn't commenting on the particular situation, and was merely illustrating the point that there is no hard or soft line as to what constitutes a "sufficiently local" or "most local" candidate, and that it will vary from election to election

You said use something catchy, they used the fact she was brought up in Scotland which is made up of her years as a toddler, early school, primary school and secondary school. All her adult life so far has been in Bristol making the use of her Scottishness bigoted.

It is catchy to say "she's not even lived here most of her life. Look. She lived somewhere else. Far away. She doesn't even live in the ward now" as an illustration of saying "look, our candidate has been in the constituency longer than her. He/she is the better local candidate". It isn't "bigoted" to state that she has spent most of her life living in Scotland. That is a fact. It's no more bigoted than to say "She spent most of her life in Cornwall" or "she spent most of her life in Zurich" or "she spent most of her life living in Canada". It's not bigoted. It's stating a fact about where she's lived most of her life, and therefore, in their opinion, part of the reason and a catchy chunk of the evidence why she is a less local candidate to a council election in a ward in Bristol.

Again, I stress this. I pass no comment on whether she is a good enough candidate in terms of local credentials, or on how Bristolian she is. That's a different question altogether. Point out she lived in Scotland for a long time isn't bigoted. It's a fact.

[Ad Lib]

Lets put it another way. They said don't vote for her she went to school in Scotland. Bigoted no matter what way you look at it.

No, that's not what they said. Only a wilful perversion of what was said could reach that conclusion. They said "she's not a local candidate, she lived in Scotland (nowhere near here) most of her life. Vote for our candidate: they've lived here longer and have a better local track record."

[sons superhero]

Not in the context of that general point it isn't. I was giving you what I thought would be different considerations in different contexts where someone is a relative newcomer to a place. I wasn't commenting on the particular situation, and was merely illustrating the point that there is no hard or soft line as to what constitutes a "sufficiently local" or "most local" candidate, and that it will vary from election to electionIt is catchy to say "she's not even lived here most of her life. Look. She lived somewhere else. Far away. She doesn't even live in the ward now" as an illustration of saying "look, our candidate has been in the constituency longer than her. He/she is the better local candidate". It isn't "bigoted" to state that she has spent most of her life living in Scotland. That is a fact. It's no more bigoted than to say "She spent most of her life in Cornwall" or "she spent most of her life in Zurich" or "she spent most of her life living in Canada". It's not bigoted. It's stating a fact about where she's lived most of her life, and therefore, in their opinion, part of the reason and a catchy chunk of the evidence why she is a less local candidate to a council election in a ward in Bristol.

Again, I stress this. I pass no comment on whether she is a good enough candidate in terms of local credentials, or on how Bristolian she is. That's a different question altogether. Point out she lived in Scotland for a long time isn't bigoted. It's a fact.

I asked you a straight question. What makes a candidate credible you said active in the local community for 4-5years. I used that in this case she is credible. How long will she have to wait, half her life.

Using your logic i can stand against my local councillor in my next local election and say don't vote for her because she went to school in England. I will not be hunted by the media or the other candidates for being anti English.

[sons superhero]

By the way LiberalDem Candidate although born in Bristol he has lived in MANY places MAINLY in the south east of England. It appears he has lived away from Bristol for longer than the labour candidate. Still think its not bigoted???

[Ad Lib]

I asked you a straight question. What makes a candidate credible you said active in the local community for 4-5years.

Wrong. I did not say that made a candidate credible. I said it wasn't comparable to another set of circumstances, and that it depended on the location, the type of election and who else was standing. At no point did I say that 4-5 years active service in the local community was either necessary or sufficient to be a credible council candidate on local criteria. Do not put words in my mouth.

I used that in this case she is credible. How long will she have to wait, half her life.

She can wait for as long or as short a period as she likes.

Using your logic i can stand against my local councillor in my next local election and say don't vote for her because she went to school in England.

This is literally untrue. My "logic" says nothing of the sort. You absolutely could stand against your councillor and say "vote for me, I've got stronger links to this community because I've lived here my whole life while the incumbent spent most of her life in England." You couldn't say "don't vote for her. She's English" or "she's from England, don't vote for her. Englishers are weirdos." Because that's bigotry. It's also different.

I will not be hunted by the media or the other candidates for being anti English.

If you say "she lived in England most of her life: she knows this community less well than I do" then you would not be anti-English and anyone saying you were would be wrong. That doesn't mean you do actually know the community better, but you're not a xenophobe.