Sons' sorrow

[Getcooperon]

No-one, least of all me is recommending a hook, line and sinker approach to this proposed development. There are serious questions to be asked that not even the proposed developers could answer at this stage, due to land prices, the economy etc. So you are quite right to apply rigour and so we should. 'Dumbarton FC has no pressing need to relocate anywhere' is a true statement on its own. However what about Dumbarton FC has a pressing need to increase its income and relocation may, I repeat may be a way of doing that?

Picking up on a couple of things

1) yes it's hard to know if the proposal would be a good thing in the absence of any financial detail from those who are behind this. This lack of detail isn't because the proposers are unable to provide this at this stage because of economic variables such as fluctuating land prices. A sound business proposal will contain multiple projections for

elements influenced by economic uncertainty. I expect this to have been done and would not only be surprised if it

hasn't but be even more concerned if this is not the case. We need the financial information at the outset to have

meaningful fan consultation and I hope this is provided.

2) every club needs to generate income over and above gate receipts. I agree though with the post by Frank Quitely that we don't maximise opportunities at our current location. I'm afraid though I don't follow Wilfs comment " what if

DFC has a pressing need to increase it's income and relocation may be a way of doing this. This applies if we are spending more than we earn at present and are currently racking up debt. Does anyone know if this is the case? If not then we are back at the assertion of a move for other reasons. I ignore the press release froth of becoming "the first choice club for fans west of Glasgow" and health and wellbeing comments in order to tick the necessary boxes of the area community plan and local development plan.

Others have gone down a road of relocation akin to our current plans and based on a premise of build and they will

come.......Livingston, Clyde and Stirling Albion to name three. I'd hate to see us in a position where the elephant onour club badge represents something else altogether......a white elephant of a stadium.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Getcooperon

[Howlin' Wilf]

No-one, least of all me is recommending a hook, line and sinker approach to this proposed development. There are serious questions to be asked that not even the proposed developers could answer at this stage, due to land prices, the economy etc. So you are quite right to apply rigour and so we should. 'Dumbarton FC has no pressing need to relocate anywhere' is a true statement on its own. However what about Dumbarton FC has a pressing need to increase its income and relocation may, I repeat may be a way of doing that?

Picking up on a couple of things

1) yes it's hard to know if the proposal would be a good thing in the absence of any financial detail from those who are behind this. This lack of detail isn't because the proposers are unable to provide this at this stage because of economic variables such as fluctuating land prices. A sound business proposal will contain multiple projections for

elements influenced by economic uncertainty. I expect this to have been done and would not only be surprised if it

hasn't but be even more concerned if this is not the case. We need the financial information at the outset to have

meaningful fan consultation and I hope this is provided.

2) every club needs to generate income over and above gate receipts. I agree though with the post by Frank Quitely that we don't maximise opportunities at our current location. I'm afraid though I don't follow Wilfs comment " what if

DFC has a pressing need to increase it's income and relocation may be a way of doing this. This applies if we are spending more than we earn at present and are currently racking up debt. Does anyone know if this is the case? If not then we are back at the assertion of a move for other reasons. I ignore the press release froth of becoming "the first choice club for fans west of Glasgow" and health and wellbeing comments in order to tick the necessary boxes of the area community plan and local development plan.

Others have gone down a road of relocation akin to our current plans and based on a premise of build and they will

come.......Livingston, Clyde and Stirling Albion to name three. I'd hate to see us in a position where the elephant onour club badge represents something else altogether......a white elephant of a stadium.

Aye sorry I went back to my original post and I hadn't worded it well. What I was trying to say was imagine that DFC could enhance its income stream by leasing out parts of the new site? If a gym.hotel and other businesses were charged rent then we could be looking at maybe £250k per anum or more income. I have no idea if these businesses could be attracted but presumably that would be ascertained before any move?

Edited November 16, 2014 by Howlin' Wilf

[Getcooperon]

Ok Wilf....got it. I appreciate your point and until more information is available we can only speculate....which does no harm as it gets thoughts out in the open. I've no wish to sound negative either but, as I said in the last post, we know of clubs that have crashed and burned by over-extending themselves usually by straying away from football and running add-ons beyond their capabilities.

[Howlin' Wilf]

Ok Wilf....got it. I appreciate your point and until more information is available we can only speculate....which does no harm as it gets thoughts out in the open. I've no wish to sound negative either but, as I said in the last post, we know of clubs that have crashed and burned by over-extending themselves usually by straying away from football and running add-ons beyond their capabilities.

Yes for every Kilmarnock stadium hotel, there are probably ten ventures like the David Duff hotel one at Hibs many years ago . This story http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/chairman-reveals-how-he-won-control-of-hibs-1.600865 soon became this one http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/hibs-former-chief-jailed-for-two-years-for-fraud-1.747680

On the face of it, swapping an 11 acre site with no realistic plan for development for a 120 acre one on which the council would support and encourage development is a 'no brainer'. The current site will never be developed beyond what it is for the reasons I have outlined ad nauseum.That's my opinion, I may be wrong but if anyone can give me an example of where investment has come from entirely within a Scottish part-time club to provide training facilities or significant additional income streams I'd be interested. . Similarly if anyone can tell me how you get round a local plan which designates the area occupied by the stadium as one for housing that'd be good too.

'But no one has ever tested the planning issues'. That may be true and if it is it'll be for two main reasons: 1) Because of the local plan and other frankly pretty obvious planning issues and 2) No sane businessman would invest in the current site for footballing/commercial purposes when it is clear that someone at some stage is going to realise that site for housing.

That was (even more) true when Rankine had it and it remains the case with Brabco.

If the club (the club, not the majority shareholder) is to be a commercial landlord with income streams from large companies on long leases, that's really just grand scale buy to let. A far, far better bet income wise than trying to bring through young players and sell them on. Despite the exception that is Hamilton Accies, that train left some time ago.

HOWEVER

I am greatly concerned that the club has not had an AGM for so long. Companies with nothing to hide do not generally behave in this way.

And of course the devil may well be in the detail of all this. It does look, prima facie, appealing from a business point of view but there are many pertinant questions which remain unanswered.

The answer to most of those questions will be 'money'

Edited November 17, 2014 by Howlin' Wilf

[The Moonster]

If the club can show me evidence of having large companies on long leases for all the shite we're planning on building I'd be inclined to start trusting this plan. So far we have none. You cannot just build it and hope they will come.

No one can even give us an extremely rough ball park figure for what it'll cost. If they GENUINELY have no idea of what this costs then stop it now and don't waste any more money on planning. We all work in businesses I imagine, we're not stupid, we had a 6 year project in the making in my work and the first thing the customer wanted to know is how much the whole thing will cost him. Aye, sure there might be problems that raise that cost or shortcuts that lower it but surely after 4 years they know what this will cost. It's the lack of info matched with fantasyland fluff that has so many doubts over this.

I'd hope they'd release figures before this meeting so that people can look at them and ask any questions they have. I have a sneaky feeling they'll announce them on the night though, if at all.

[Howlin' Wilf]

If the club can show me evidence of having large companies on long leases for all the shite we're planning on building I'd be inclined to start trusting this plan. So far we have none. You cannot just build it and hope they will come.

No one can even give us an extremely rough ball park figure for what it'll cost. If they GENUINELY have no idea of what this costs then stop it now and don't waste any more money on planning. We all work in businesses I imagine, we're not stupid, we had a 6 year project in the making in my work and the first thing the customer wanted to know is how much the whole thing will cost him. Aye, sure there might be problems that raise that cost or shortcuts that lower it but surely after 4 years they know what this will cost. It's the lack of info matched with fantasyland fluff that has so many doubts over this.

I'd hope they'd release figures before this meeting so that people can look at them and ask any questions they have. I have a sneaky feeling they'll announce them on the night though, if at all.

Moonster......take a deep breath. There wouldn't be anything built without tenants signed up. That is how these things work. To sign people up you have to have planning permission. To get planning permission you have to go through a public consultation process. The idea of build it and they will come most definitely doesn't apply.

I have major concerns but lets keep the concerns to legitimate ones. I believe the ball park figure for phase 1 is £4 million. Until the current site can achieve that value at least, the whole thing is a non starter.

[The Moonster]

Fine but I would have at least thought there would be some sort of study into whether or not there's actually demand for a hotel or gym or cinema or whatever on the Renton Road. If there was, we'd like to see it.

Where's the 4 million figure came from? If that's the case why is that not communicated to the fans. I can breathe deeply all you want, I assure you I'm perfectly calm, it is absolutely frustrating that fans are treated like mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed shite. Tell us the facts and we'll be inclinced to support you. Hide stuff and it rings alarm bells. I don't think we're asking too much.

[Howlin' Wilf]

Fine but I would have at least thought there would be some sort of study into whether or not there's actually demand for a hotel or gym or cinema or whatever on the Renton Road. If there was, we'd like to see it.

Where's the 4 million figure came from? If that's the case why is that not communicated to the fans. I can breathe deeply all you want, I assure you I'm perfectly calm, it is absolutely frustrating that fans are treated like mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed shite. Tell us the facts and we'll be inclinced to support you. Hide stuff and it rings alarm bells. I don't think we're asking too much.

There will be all sorts of data already available via Experian and the like on the viability. The £4m figure came from Gilbert Lawrie when I asked him, as a fan, at the exhibition how much phase 1 would cost and how this sum would be raised. Straight answer to a straight question. I heard the same question from others and the same answer was given. I'm interested if others asked questions if they felt weren't answered satisfactorily. If that's the case there may not yet be answers. To answer a question when the answer isn't available? Now that would be bullshit.

200 attended and I understand that around 50 responses were received. Considering we have 600 season ticket holders that's pretty poor.

A bit disappointing too that so many who have declared themselves as 'No' voters didn't even take the trouble to attend or ask a question. I'm not getting at you here because I think you did attend. However it's a bit rich for people to complain about lack of info when there was an opportunity to speak directly to DFC, Brabco and their advisers.

I hope the Sonstrust event, to which I am going next week, is well attended. I also urge people to respond on the Sonstrust site to the plans instead of fulminating on here.

[The Moonster]

There will be all sorts of data already available via Experian and the like on the viability. The £4m figure came from Gilbert Lawrie when I asked him, as a fan, at the exhibition how much phase 1 would cost and how this sum would be raised. Straight answer to a straight question. I heard the same question from others and the same answer was given. I'm interested if others asked questions if they felt weren't answered satisfactorily. If that's the case there may not yet be answers. To answer a question when the answer isn't available? Now that would be bullshit.

200 attended and I understand that around 50 responses were received. Considering we have 600 season ticket holders that's pretty poor.

A bit disappointing too that so many who have declared themselves as 'No' voters didn't even take the trouble to attend or ask a question. I'm not getting at you here because I think you did attend. However it's a bit rich for people to complain about lack of info when there was an opportunity to speak directly to DFC, Brabco and their advisers.

I hope the Sonstrust event, to which I am going next week, is well attended. I also urge people to respond on the Sonstrust site to the plans instead of fulminating on here.

I was down on the Thursday night for the proposals as that's when I could make it down. Gilbert was there but very scarce (he'd just taken an earful from BallochSonsFan - over a lack of info). It ended up with Roddy, the planner, answering all the questions - he didn't know what it was going to cost but said that "it roughly stacks up". That's not a slight on him, I don't believe it's up to him to inform us of such things and he probably didn't want to say anything that would land him in bother. No one from Brabco was there. If the £4M figure is what they've worked out, why not put that on the info board? "We expect phase 1 to cost us £4M, we plan on funding this by...", job done. Why keep it hidden and drip feed info to some people? Instead the info boards had guff like being the number 1 wedding venue or the first choice team west of Glasgow.

If they have no answers, admit that. However I feel to have no answers to some fairly standard questions after 4 years of work and planning to be pretty frightening.

[Howlin' Wilf]

I was down on the Thursday night for the proposals as that's when I could make it down. Gilbert was there but very scarce (he'd just taken an earful from BallochSonsFan - over a lack of info). It ended up with Roddy, the planner, answering all the questions - he didn't know what it was going to cost but said that "it roughly stacks up". That's not a slight on him, I don't believe it's up to him to inform us of such things and he probably didn't want to say anything that would land him in bother. No one from Brabco was there. If the £4M figure is what they've worked out, why not put that on the info board? "We expect phase 1 to cost us £4M, we plan on funding this by...", job done. Why keep it hidden and drip feed info to some people? Instead the info boards had guff like being the number 1 wedding venue or the first choice team west of Glasgow.

If they have no answers, admit that. However I feel to have no answers to some fairly standard questions after 4 years of work and planning to be pretty frightening.

Moonster, as I said it was clearly a ball park figure. The reason it wasn't on an information board is probably because they cannot be definite about costs two years hence. How much was Ryan Gauld worth two years ago for example? To include £3m for him in any business plan would have seemed fanciful. How much will an acre of land in Dumbarton be worth in two years time? more predictable than the value of a footballer perhaps but still volatile.

The kind of guff on the information boards is entirely typical of such presentations. They will never have financial information on them. This was a planning consultation in any case - not a business plan presentation. As I said they need planning permission before the next stage of a business plan.

'No one from Brabco was there' Eh,,,I understood that Gilbert Lawrie represents both Brabco and the club. If he was there he was available for questions. I don't know what the questions from Balloch Sonsfan were or how relevant. From my own point of view I took a bit of trouble to actually read the information boards before asking questions. This was done in a spirit of courtesy from both sides.

I have more information now but not the full picture. I did ask about Brabco and was told that Calum Hosie owns a majority shareholding in it. As someone who remembers his uncle as the man who virtually ran DFC for decades, including a short spell as team manager, this gives me a bit of comfort.

Be vigilant and ask questions. Just make sure they are the right ones at the right time.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

'No one from Brabco was there' Eh,,,I understood that Gilbert Lawrie represents both Brabco and the club. If he was there he was available for questions. I don't know what the questions from Balloch Sonsfan were or how relevant. From my own point of view I took a bit of trouble to actually read the information boards before asking questions. This was done in a spirit of courtesy from both sides.

I'm glad you know Gilbert respresents both Brabco and the club cause I certainly never. I was under the impression he was simply a fan with a high ranking position.

I attended the consultation evening with Moonster and by the time we got round to asking questions Gilbert was hiding in the corner. Infact he walked away mid questioning by Balloch SonsFan. I'm not going to go chasing him about the room when it's clear he doesn't want to answer difficult questions.

You may know him on a more personal level than myself but he didn't seem very approachable. He came across quite similar during the season ticket debacle. Perhaps if he was more approachable/had a better tone people would feel more comfortable asking him questions.

[Nowhereman]

Moonster, as I said it was clearly a ball park figure. The reason it wasn't on an information board is probably because they cannot be definite about costs two years hence. How much was Ryan Gauld worth two years ago for example? To include £3m for him in any business plan would have seemed fanciful. How much will an acre of land in Dumbarton be worth in two years time? more predictable than the value of a footballer perhaps but still volatile.

The kind of guff on the information boards is entirely typical of such presentations. They will never have financial information on them. This was a planning consultation in any case - not a business plan presentation. As I said they need planning permission before the next stage of a business plan.

'No one from Brabco was there' Eh,,,I understood that Gilbert Lawrie represents both Brabco and the club. If he was there he was available for questions. I don't know what the questions from Balloch Sonsfan were or how relevant. From my own point of view I took a bit of trouble to actually read the information boards before asking questions. This was done in a spirit of courtesy from both sides.

I have more information now but not the full picture. I did ask about Brabco and was told that Calum Hosie owns a majority shareholding in it. As someone who remembers his uncle as the man who virtually ran DFC for decades, including a short spell as team manager, this gives me a bit of comfort.

Be vigilant and ask questions. Just make sure they are the right ones at the right time.

When was that?

[The Moonster]

No one asked for definite costs. I'd expect costs to be pretty heavily involved in the planning consultation but hey, what do I know.

So Gilbert's Brabco's man then and I've to be comforted by that? He was there but as I said before he was scarce. I'm not sure what you're suggesting with the "I took time to read the boards", do you think myself or BSF just walked in and started bumping our gums without looking at the info?

I'm afraid no amount of "he's a good Sons man" or "his da's dug went to the games at Bogheed" will bring me comfort here. They could all be die-hard Dumbarton fans and still come up with a crazy idea that I'm fully against. They could still turn out to be completely correct of course, this could be the community hub Dumbarton has been crying out for and we can be lighting our cigars on the shiny new terracing with £100 notes but I'm afraid they've been nothing but unconvincing so far.

[Trawler Rum & Weetabix]

Other than house-building Dumbarton and the Vale don't figure highly on any measures of economic regeneration, and I'm really struggling to think who ar what would be attracted to the area in question. Sure it's just off the A82 which is a tourist route, but we already have hotels and travel lodges with another currently in construction in Balloch, a more pleasant part of the world.

The only thing I can think of would be an outlets type of thing but even that that seems one hell of an ask. I'm figuring the economic numbers wouldn't stack up for a golf range or a garden centre, so what does anyone on here think could realistically pump prime capital into DFC being able to achieve a 4000 capacity football ground ??

[The Moonster]

Weddings mate. Haven't you always wanted to get married on a flood plain just outside Renton?

[Boghead ranter]

This #1 team West of Glasgow thing - how many clubs ARE west of Glasgow?

Us and Morton? Include St Mirren at a push, depending on how much you want to debate whether Paisley is now part of Glasgow?

[BallochSonsFan]

The £4million rough estimate is more than I could get from Gilbert when I asked him Wilf. He flat out refused to answer my question and stated quite clearly that he wouldn't be telling me any figures when pressed on the issue. Even rough ones. Moonster asked for a ball park figure as well. Answers were there none.

As a purely paper exercise, theres little to object to in the public consultation. I have my own concerns regarding access to the ground via Renton Road and a potential traffic black spot getting back onto the A82 at Renton. I also find it more than a bit worrying when the public consultation calls for a single 1500 capacity stand for phase 1 when both Gilbert and the Rod the planning bloke were eager to tell me that they'd actually be building 2 stands for a 2000 capacity. But in general terms the notion of moving to the new site is relatively sound, with a massive caveat:

It has to be in the best financial interests of the club and it has to be done in a way that protects the fans.

Promises of a fully booked function suite for 52 weddings a year are brilliant. They don't pay any bills, but they're brilliant on paper. Same goes for the £130k income we'll get from 3 community pitches. If the market exists. If it doesnt then what looks great on paper suddenly starts to look questionable in practice. How much can the market afford to pay? How many brides are willing to have their wedding reception disrupted by 1500+ football fans on a Saturday afternoon? How many teams in west Dunbartonshire are going to give up their current training arrangements to flock to the Youngs Farm site? And what will the council do when local teams suddenly stop hiring local 3g pitches from them?

Then theres the actual funding. The proposal is to sell the BB and to have contingency for 6 plots that can be developed to provide Dumbarton FC with finances to help pay for the development of the new ground should our existing site fall short in raising funds. Why can't we develop these 6 plots anyway and provide the club with additional money? How much will it cost to build the community facilities? Whats the time scale for them to start generating money for the club? How do Brabco fund development of the site before we purchase it from them? Will Dumbarton be expected to borrow at commercial rates in order to fund the move to the Youngs Farm site and then sell the BB?

Theres a massive difference between what looks good on paper and what works in practice. On paper the proposals should be generally backed. In practice? What safeguards are in place that will ensure that we walk away if the deal isnt in the club's best interests? With Brabco owning a massive majority and therefore a controlling interest in the boardroom, fans can surely be forgiven for thinking that this is less a public consultation and more a fate accompli.

[BallochSonsFan]

This #1 team West of Glasgow thing - how many clubs ARE west of Glasgow?

Us and Morton? Include St Mirren at a push, depending on how much you want to debate whether Paisley is now part of Glasgow?

I'd also consider Braehead.

We're competing for fans with Rangers, Celtic and other sports. The Clan have come from nowhere and in their 5 year existance they've gone from 1000 fans a game to now selling out Braehead and bagging 3000 fans on a regular basis. Plans have been approved for a major arena upgrade.

We might be the #1 football team west of Glasgow. Thats not to say that theres a market out there just waiting to be attracted to a new ground. Our crowd has been pretty static for several seasons and its hardly grown since I started following the Sons. If we can't get new fans along to the BB, why will we suddenly be able to market ourselves aggressively when we move to a new ground?

[Nowhereman]

I'd also consider Braehead.

We're competing for fans with Rangers, Celtic and other sports. The Clan have come from nowhere and in their 5 year existance they've gone from 1000 fans a game to now selling out Braehead and bagging 3000 fans on a regular basis. Plans have been approved for a major arena upgrade.

We might be the #1 football team west of Glasgow. Thats not to say that theres a market out there just waiting to be attracted to a new ground. Our crowd has been pretty static for several seasons and its hardly grown since I started following the Sons. If we can't get new fans along to the BB, why will we suddenly be able to market ourselves aggressively when we move to a new ground?

Our crowds have been pretty static for about thirty five years !

[George Parr]

200 attended and I understand that around 50 responses were received. Considering we have 600 season ticket holders that's pretty poor.

I hope the Sonstrust event, to which I am going next week, is well attended. I also urge people to respond on the Sonstrust site to the plans instead of fulminating on here.

Disagree. I think they done well to get 200 down there considering the presentations were held midweek and largely in the afternoon.

I would expect a good attendance at the meeting, where many us who missed the public consultation will be queuing up to put forward our thoughts.