Sons' sorrow

[Doink]

Fans don't count

[Howlin' Wilf]

There is one salient fact as I see it and that is the club occupies a prime housing site. When the land occupied by a football club becomes more valuable in monetary terms than the club itself, then that is not a good thing for the long term security of that club. Currently the club has an opportunity to relocate to another much bigger site with a very low cost of land purchase. That site affords the opportunity of incorporating facilities from which the club will receive an income. Phase 1 from what Gilbert said will cost around £4 million and would be financed from the sale of the current site.

He said that were the appropriate sum not to be raised from the sale of the current site, then the project wouldn't go ahead. So where do Denny's Homes come in? Well they would develop and build on half the current site. That is where the return on their 'investment' comes from.

The reason Phase 1 has two training pitches instead of building a second stand at this stage is that the pitches would save and generate money via the team using them for training purposes and their hiring out. And in any case the capacity would be adequate. The first stand would be a two tier building with bars on the first floor and function suites on the ground floor. People book weddings sometimes years in advance. Currently the club doesn't know whether they can take weddings until the football fixture lists come out in June. With a separate function facility this would allow them to take advance bookings. The club is the only function/conference facility in town with a capacity of more than 200

Subsequent phases of development are reliant on securing the income via the other proposed developments on the site.

I was assured that Phase one would be completed before the clearing of the old site, thus no ground sharing.

It isn't the best site I can think of but it is the only alternative one I can think of.

However.....

I find it quite strange that the club has not had an AGM in about three years. I would have thought that these plans would have been discussed with shareholders first. Have the holders of the 100 C shares been notified? I think not.

I would like to think that some way of ring fencing the proceeds of the sale of the current site would be found. I think WDC may already be on the case here.

I wonder if there would be quite the demand for the other facilties (hotel/pub/gym etc) to finance the other phases.

So....yes the salient fact is that the club is sitting on a valuable site. At some stage either the current or subsequent owners will realise that asset. It may be better for that to happen with concrete (sic) plans in place for an alternative site. Or it may not. I simply don't know. I'm trying though to look at the big picture here.

One thing is sure. If the Robert the Bruce Stadium doesn't go ahead. Others may try, try and try again to get the club out of the current site.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Howlin' Wilf

[The Moonster]

I was told they didn't know who was building houses on the existing site. I'm sorry but if the people involved in it and proposing it can't get the story straight I find it incredibly hard to believe that we're not being shafted here.

[Howlin' Wilf]

In response to my enquiry on whether Denny's Homes would build on the site themselves, the reply from Gilbert was that they would probably build on half of the site with another builder doing the other half.

[Howlin' Wilf]

I went down this afternoon for a look and came out with more questions than answers.

Coming from Clydebank I have witnessed a few years ago the demise of a team after promises of new stadia.

My concerns on the new ground are simple. Why should DFC go into any debt before a deal is struck with the sale of the land our stadium is on. If the offer of building a new stadium is part of selling price for the land them let the purchaser build it before we leave the Rock. The profit from the use of the new training pitches sounds nice but they will need to be staffed seven days a week, who pays they wages?

I do have a bad feeling about this however I hope to be proven wrong.

Everyone should be sceptical. Many clubs have perished on the 'Rock' of promises of new stadia. I don't think there is a proposal to go into debt before a deal is done. I think the borrowing would be to cover the period between the signing of a deal and the clearing of the site and to facilitate 'Phase 1'. However that is precisely why I would wish to see safeguards.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

There is one salient fact as I see it and that is the club occupies a prime housing site. When the land occupied by a football club becomes more valuable in monetary terms than the club itself, then that is not a good thing for the long term security of that club. Currently the club has an opportunity to relocate to another much bigger site with a very low cost of land purchase. That site affords the opportunity of incorporating facilities from which the club will receive an income. Phase 1 from what Gilbert said will cost around £4 million and would be financed from the sale of the current site.

He said that were the appropriate sum not to be raised from the sale of the current site, then the project wouldn't go ahead. So where do Denny's Homes come in? Well they would develop and build on half the current site. That is where the return on their 'investment' comes from.

The reason Phase 1 has two training pitches instead of building a second stand at this stage is that the pitches would save and generate money via the team using them for training purposes and their hiring out. And in any case the capacity would be adequate. The first stand would be a two tier building with bars on the first floor and function suites on the ground floor. People book weddings sometimes years in advance. Currently the club doesn't know whether they can take weddings until the football fixture lists come out in June. With a separate function facility this would allow them to take advance bookings. The club is the only function/conference facility in town with a capacity of more than 200

Subsequent phases of development are reliant on securing the income via the other proposed developments on the site.

I was assured that Phase one would be completed before the clearing of the old site, thus no ground sharing.

It isn't the best site I can think of but it is the only alternative one I can think of.

However.....

I find it quite strange that the club has not had an AGM in about three years. I would have thought that these plans would have been discussed with shareholders first. Have the holders of the 100 C shares been notified? I think not.

I would like to think that some way of ring fencing the proceeds of the sale of the current site would be found. I think WDC may already be on the case here.

I wonder if there would be quite the demand for the other facilties (hotel/pub/gym etc) to finance the other phases.

So....yes the salient fact is that the club is sitting on a valuable site. At some stage either the current or subsequent owners will realise that asset. It may be better for that to happen with concrete (sic) plans in place for an alternative site. Or it may not. I simply don't know. I'm trying though to look at the big picture here.

One thing is sure. If the Robert the Bruce Stadium doesn't go ahead. Others may try, try and try again to get the club out of the current site.

A couple of points here; Dumbarton FC is a professional football club, not a wedding or conference venue, and whilst I'm all in favour of 'maximising revenue streams' decisions should be made in the best interests of the footballing aspects of the club and its support and shareholders.

Secondly, if the current hospitality facilities at BBS are considered inadequate why can the possibility of adding a second storey to the existing building not be explored ? For that matter, the whole building could be enhanced at considerably less cost than uprooting as proposed, it's what many people do with their homes. Or is any investment now totally conditional on Brabco getting their pound of flesh ?

Thirdly, as regards training pitches, etc., I suspect the projected income versus reality would be adverse; a club like Stenhousemuir could provide an indication of what to expect. And what of DFC's involvement in refurbishing East End Park for the club's and others' use - has this now been kicked into the long grass in favour of the current ground move proposal ?

[Howlin' Wilf]

A couple of points here; Dumbarton FC is a professional football club, not a wedding or conference venue, and whilst I'm all in favour of 'maximising revenue streams' decisions should be made in the best interests of the footballing aspects of the club and its support and shareholders.

Secondly, if the current hospitality facilities at BBS are considered inadequate why can the possibility of adding a second storey to the existing building not be explored ? For that matter, the whole building could be enhanced at considerably less cost than uprooting as proposed, it's what many people do with their homes. Or is any investment now totally conditional on Brabco getting their pound of flesh ?

Thirdly, as regards training pitches, etc., I suspect the projected income versus reality would be adverse; a club like Stenhousemuir could provide an indication of what to expect. And what of DFC's involvement in refurbishing East End Park for the club's and others' use - has this now been kicked into the long grass in favour of the current ground move proposal ?

On your first point OK, the landscape has changed considerably since Dumbarton FC could run on crowds of 3000-4000, a lottery* and selling a player every couple of years. Additional income streams might keep us at a higher footballing level than 550 paying in to see Alloa on a cold Tuesday.

On point two, how would an extension be funded? The new stadium and facilities are contingent on funds from the land sale. Still on point two, if Brabco's 'pound of flesh' is to be after the fact of the land sale what's the problem?

On point three the training pitches would provide training facilities for the team to train in Dumbarton, saving on current costs. I have no idea how much Stenhousemuir make from their facilities but I thought they made a profit.

You have said yourself OK that this is going to happen.

That being the case, the crucial aspects are that the club receives a fair market value for the land and that the funds are ring-fenced for the new stadium. They should have an AGM and follow procedure and we should be vigilant.

* I understood that Sonstrust were to set up and operate a lottery on the lines of Stirling Albion or Clyde. What has happened in that respect?

[sons'r'us]

There's loads i could add to this debate but 1 point that Wilf makes about weddings. The club want to maximise it's wedding venue capability. As o'kelly says we are a football club first and foremost. Also has anyone from the club considered that the BBS may well be desirable to some as a venue due to its central locality and castle as backdrop. Who wants to get married in a Football stadium just off the A82 with no scenic back drop for photos,etc? Also the main wedding season runs May to August so we have availability for the majority of that period.

[Getcooperon]

I'm a new poster and long time Dumbarton supporter. Wilf's comments about owners inevitably seeking to realise the asset may be true in the absence of fan ownership. What supporters are, however, entitled to expect is transparency, particularly in dealings as significant as ground relocation. Questions around the capital costs of the current proposals are unanswered and it is not asking much to expect the owners, and their representatives, to provide a detailed business plan with income projections for the proposed additional revenue activities. This is particularly relevant given that the initial phase is for reduced crowd capacity and that so much is, therefore, dependent on the viability of these proposals. Added to this the current commercial track record and, at times, lack of customer awareness doesn't inspire confidence to enable us to take the income generation proposals at face value!

Yes the owners may ultimately get their way but we can as supporters ensure proposals contain the necessary detail, stack up and securities are in place to safeguard the future of the football club. On that I eagerly look forward to the meeting planned by the supporters trust later this month.

[Howlin' Wilf]

There's loads i could add to this debate but 1 point that Wilf makes about weddings. The club want to maximise it's wedding venue capability. As o'kelly says we are a football club first and foremost. Also has anyone from the club considered that the BBS may well be desirable to some as a venue due to its central locality and castle as backdrop. Who wants to get married in a Football stadium just off the A82 with no scenic back drop for photos,etc? Also the main wedding season runs May to August so we have availability for the majority of that period.

I made this very point to the officials at the meeting. I was told that only one wedding party to their knowledge had ever availed themselves of the opportunity of having their photos taken at the Castle Green. I find that quite baffling if true. I was thinking back to the last four weddings I have attended. Only one of them was in May-August. That was OK3's and Sons had a home game that day......

I am neither for nor against the proposed stadium move - all I'm trying to do is apply a bit of context.

[Howlin' Wilf]

I'm a new poster and long time Dumbarton supporter. Wilf's comments about owners inevitably seeking to realise the asset may be true in the absence of fan ownership. What supporters are, however, entitled to expect is transparency, particularly in dealings as significant as ground relocation. Questions around the capital costs of the current proposals are unanswered and it is not asking much to expect the owners, and their representatives, to provide a detailed business plan with income projections for the proposed additional revenue activities. This is particularly relevant given that the initial phase is for reduced crowd capacity and that so much is, therefore, dependent on the viability of these proposals. Added to this the current commercial track record and, at times, lack of customer awareness doesn't inspire confidence to enable us to take the income generation proposals at face value!

Yes the owners may ultimately get their way but we can as supporters ensure proposals contain the necessary detail, stack up and securities are in place to safeguard the future of the football club. On that I eagerly look forward to the meeting planned by the supporters trust later this month.

No argument from me to any of that.

[Trawler Rum & Weetabix]

I'm a new poster and long time Dumbarton supporter. Wilf's comments about owners inevitably seeking to realise the asset may be true in the absence of fan ownership. What supporters are, however, entitled to expect is transparency, particularly in dealings as significant as ground relocation. Questions around the capital costs of the current proposals are unanswered and it is not asking much to expect the owners, and their representatives, to provide a detailed business plan with income projections for the proposed additional revenue activities. This is particularly relevant given that the initial phase is for reduced crowd capacity and that so much is, therefore, dependent on the viability of these proposals. Added to this the current commercial track record and, at times, lack of customer awareness doesn't inspire confidence to enable us to take the income generation proposals at face value!

Yes the owners may ultimately get their way but we can as supporters ensure proposals contain the necessary detail, stack up and securities are in place to safeguard the future of the football club. On that I eagerly look forward to the meeting planned by the supporters trust later this month.

This is probably the best post yet on this topic, and I wouldn't argue with a word of it. But I get the sense that minds may already have been made up at the club and they will press on regardless of any supporter or Sonstrust opinions. There is also the issue that the council seems desperate to develop the current site.

[Third Son from the Rock]

Where exactly did I mention luxury homes ? I expect that the plans will be for more of the types of homes that are already adjacent to the football ground - overpriced but hardly luxury. Brabco/Denny Homes are acting now because the land on which the BB(bankrupt)S sits has increased in value to make their plans potentially viable.

And if you check I think you'll find that Turnberry divested themselves of the old Blackburn site some time ago.

If the homes are to be similar to the ones adjacent then the detached five bedroom jobs will come in around £375,000 a pop. Luxury in the poorest county in the country I would suggest. I didn't know about the Turnberry site. Does anyone know how much they sold it for and to whom?

[johnny graham]

In theory everything looks hunky doory but will it turn out that way in practice. As chivas own the land are they selling it to us at a knock down rate or simply leasing it to us.

How long will.it take to build the whole complex? And what are those rascals in the council up to in the background. What do wee gemma and big Jackie have to say? Or are they aware dumbarton have a football team. Lord mcfall or whatever he calls himself now is staying quiet despite his involvement in the previous switch.

As for gilbert. I honestly think he is a decent bloke who cares about the sons as I believe most of the suits at the bb do.

However as I have said before you can never fully trust businessmen or politicians.

Also the stadium will be further out the way and not so easily reached by our elderly supporters

Hopefully it will.all turn out all right in the end.

We could always build it at posties now that the school is not coming.

[gieitlaldy]

Why exactly do we need to move. The current sites has lots of potential for expansion with extension of current stand or building of a stand opposite. This could incorporate office units etc to generate income. There is also enough space for a synthetic pitch (the need for car parking is a bit of a moot point. I have no idea why the fee is as low as £1 with free raffle ticket? Let's increase to £2.50 and see just how many spaces we really need)

Why will the council not allow enhanced floodlighting or are they rigging our move?

What's wrong with having a football stadium along a waterfront walk?

When will these not football folk begin to understand the importance of community clubs such as ours?

We are a football club first of course however alternative revenue streams must be maximised. However not to the extent of being a reason for moving club (especially when space for expansion exists at current location)

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

What do wee gemma and big Jackie have to say?

Upon hearing that the surrounding land may be converted to a Nando's, big Jackie is apparently speechless and a bit turned on. Far too excited at the thought of some of that glistening peri-peri grease running down her chins, flowing deep down into her cravass like cleavage. Stunned into silence at the vision of herself using a spoon to scoop dollops of perinaise directly into her mouth. Heard the cooncil might need a wet floor sign as she fantasizes about sucking the thick brown greasey residue from her little chipolata fingers.

All the while the following song has been constantly playing over and over in her head and left her in a soaking wet, hungry, horny confused state

I'm Gonna Love You Just A Little Bit More, Baby -…: http://youtu.be/2YChL6tQvcY

Please note: for full effect play the song then read the main body of my post.

[Getcooperon]

Why exactly do we need to move. The current sites has lots of potential for expansion with extension of current stand or building of a stand opposite. This could incorporate office units etc to generate income. There is also enough space for a synthetic pitch (the need for car parking is a bit of a moot point. I have no idea why the fee is as low as £1 with free raffle ticket? Let's increase to £2.50 and see just how many spaces we really need)

Why will the council not allow enhanced floodlighting or are they rigging our move?

What's wrong with having a football stadium along a waterfront walk?

When will these not football folk begin to understand the importance of community clubs such as ours?

We are a football club first of course however alternative revenue streams must be maximised. However not to the extent of being a reason for moving club (especially when space for expansion exists at current location)

I agree with this. The current stadium is perfectly suitable for our needs now and in the future. We could do more though to generate income but that's a different matter. The proposed sale it seems is purely down to the owners seeking a return and this is the only route in the absence of a wealthy buyer who would need very deep pockets to buy the existing set-up at a price similar to the value to the owners from selling the site for redevelopment. I don't know the position of the council but suspect club and supporter representation to councillors,MSP and MP could resolve issues and allow us to stay put. I could be wrong on that but it looks to me as if there is no desire to put up a defence for our current location.

If this is the case then all we can do is seek to ensure that the move doesn't leave the clubs future in a state....debt and loss of assets.

[gieitlaldy]

Forgive my ignorance and laziness. Who are the current owners of land and stadium at moment?

[Howlin' Wilf]

Forgive my ignorance and laziness. Who are the current owners of land and stadium at moment?

Dumbarton FC owns the land and the majority shareholders in Dumbarton FC is Brabco

[TheFarPost]

Hi y'all - please see the latest update from the Sonstrust on the consultation/exhibition about new DFC stadium plans here: http://sonstrust.wordpress.com/2014/11/09/plenty-of-comment-on-new-stadium-proposal/ Thanks to everyone who came along. It was a great turnout, and some key issues were raised both verbally and in writing. There will be more comment to follow from the trust, and as you know we have arranged a General Meeting at 7pm on 26th November at the Abbotsford Hotel. You can follow all the latest hereL http://sonstrust.wordpress.com/tag/stadium/

I'm liaising directly with the Club on behalf of the trust about these proposals (which are at a very early stage, it's worth noting - the display was about the proposed scheme, not any of the detail that will need to be entertained if it goes through outline planning approval next year). You can contact me directly here: simon.barrow@ekklesia.co.uk or on 07850 120413.

If you want your comments, ideas, suggestions, alternative proposals and responses passed on directly **please leave them on the trust website** or send them to me. Cheers!

While I'm here, if you haven't done so already this season, **please join the trust** and encourage friends and family to do so (http://sonstrust.wordpress.com/join-here/). It's your vehicle for getting heard and involved, and it makes you part of a body that has a share in DFC. Strengthening and growing the Sonstrust is all about ensuring that fans have a major stake and say in the club we love as it moves forward. We'd like to have another record membership this season, as vital discussion about where Dumbarton FC is headed takes place.

(Simon Barrow, Sonstrust Board).