Sons' sorrow

[O'Kelly Isley III]

11 hours ago, lionel wickson said:

Well, just off the top of my head, Gary Naysmith might be one. 

Indeed, and genuinely without sarcasm I would expect every football club to have their finger on the pulse of who is available, who has managerial experience, who is on the way 'up' who could do a job (ie Stevie Aitken), who is maybe on the way 'down (ie Jim Duffy) and who has their badges and is ready to start in management (ie Ian Murray).

Football clubs, of all the professional sports organisations surely has to have succession planning at the forefront of its thinking, and any Board of Directors which finds itself staring at the wall in a time of crisis really deserves what is coming.  It's called taking a professional approach.

[Sweet Pete]

I've had the pleasure of meeting Balloch Sons Fan in the dim and distant past at the Abbotsford public forum for the stadium build. He's a nice guy, cares deeply about Dumbarton FC and if I'm not mistaken is active in the Sons Trust.

But you're wrong here. And you're both reaching, deflecting and digging.

Stop doubling down, man. It's undignified.

[Howlin' Wilf]

https://scottishfsa.org/sons-sorrows-are-footballs-too/

[BallochSonsFan]

14 hours ago, Sweet Pete said:

I've had the pleasure of meeting Balloch Sons Fan in the dim and distant past at the Abbotsford public forum for the stadium build. He's a nice guy, cares deeply about Dumbarton FC and if I'm not mistaken is active in the Sons Trust.

But you're wrong here. And you're both reaching, deflecting and digging.

Stop doubling down, man. It's undignified.

Its  really easy.

Sacking Farrell in January would have been the right decision.

Sacking Farrell at the end of March is the wrong one.

We've gone beyond the point where we could bring in somebody who would legitimately be expected to do better in a short period of time. Naismith? The guy couldn't beat us in the play-offs last season despite us being garbage. He's the guy to save our season? If Barry Ferguson turned up at the rock and decided he fancied the gig, is any Sons fan welcoming him with open arms? What if Aitken turned up and told the club that he felt he could turn it around?

As OK3 points out, the board should have enough of an idea as to who is out there at any point in a season, whether it's day 1 or it's 6 weeks to go, that if we had to recruit then we could. Unfortunately that's not the current Dumbarton board. There's an ideal world and there's the reality of Dumbarton FC. There's no point expecting massive change and bold action 6 weeks from the end of the season because  we simply don't have a board who can deliver that.

I'm not defending Farrell here. In an ideal world he'd have been gone some time ago. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. We live in one where the board is a bit of a mess, has very limited footballing experience beyond Colin Hosie, is hamstrung by a combination of inexperience and unhelpful owners  and who aren't going to sack the manager  because they simply don't have a plan for his replacement. There's the ideal world that fans want and there's the reality of the Dumbarton club board.  We have far bigger problems than Stevie Farrell and this season. Farrell is one part of a far bigger picture.

Edited March 26, 2022 by BallochSonsFan

[squeezebox-son]

On 24/03/2022 at 18:32, BallochSonsFan said:

It really isnt irrelevant.

Edinburgh City sacked Naismith despite them still being in the hunt for a play-off spot - the best they could achieve this year with Kelty in the league. The players were so pissed off with the sacking that the club could barely fill a bench last Friday because so many players were refusing to play.

Can it be done? Sure. Edinburgh City sacked Naismith.

Should they have done it? This is where doing SOMETHING isnt necessarily doing the right thing. Clearly Naismith's sacking, unless it was for non-footballing reasons, was the wrong decision. It's jeopardised their chances of securing their play-off spot. It's created a really unsettled dressing room.

Fans want the club to do something. Anything to roll the dice. in Edinburgh City's case if it looks from the outside that they've done the wrong thing.

I've not said anything on this but you're definitely just getting tied up in fighting your case too much. Not once did you suggest that it wasn't a good idea to sack Faz because it would upset the camp or the team. Your main reason was that we wouldn't be able to find a replacement.

Now we have an example of how that can be done without too much issue and you appear to be straw clutching a little bit to maintain your point of view.

FWIW, I'm not totally sure if Edinburgh City have more financially than we do so maybe they could afford to pay off Naismith better than we could Farrell.

[squeezebox-son]

On 24/03/2022 at 18:47, BallochSonsFan said:

The principle is the same.

Edinburgh City sacked Naismith. From the outside it looks like the wrong decision.

Fans want the club to sack Farrell as a throw of the dice. Is it the right decision? If a new manager comes in and somehow drags better performances from the players in the next 5 weeks then arguably it is. But right now there's a shortage of candidates to replace him. Folk on here have even suggested giving the job to a current player for the rest of the season. That's not sound decision making. Thats desperation. If we ended up having to pay Farrell and McKeown their severance pay and we still went down, would it still be the right decision to have sacked Farrell?

The point at which sacking Farrell was the right decision was about 2 months ago. Now we're left relying on him turning things around because the alternatives, as much as folk want us to roll the dice, aren't any better.

The principle isn't the same though. You've stated it yourself in your post here... we are in a desperate position. That's why the situations are completely different. In our struggling position it makes sense because we really need a change in form (desperately!). Edinburgh City, as you have already stated, have achieved pretty much all they realistically could. If Dumbarton were sitting even 2 places higher in this league then I don't think there would be many asking for the manager to be sacked. But we are not up to standard and to not be competing for the mid-table positions simply isn't good enough. Change is required, urgently.

[BallochSonsFan]

43 minutes ago, squeezebox-son said:

I've not said anything on this but you're definitely just getting tied up in fighting your case too much. Not once did you suggest that it wasn't a good idea to sack Faz because it would upset the camp or the team. Your main reason was that we wouldn't be able to find a replacement.

Now we have an example of how that can be done without too much issue and you appear to be straw clutching a little bit to maintain your point of view.

FWIW, I'm not totally sure if Edinburgh City have more financially than we do so maybe they could afford to pay off Naismith better than we could Farrell.

 

Naismith as the example?

Edinburgh City sacked Naismith when they were 4 games unbeaten. Lost the first game after sacking him. We'll see how Maybury does, but if Stenny replace them as 4th - there's only a 2 point gap - is sacking Naismith the right decision?

End of April and Stenny manage to overtake Edinburgh City and secure 4th - is that a great endorsement of the decision to sack their manager this late in the season?

[sarti pooh]

1 hour ago, BallochSonsFan said:

 

Naismith as the example?

Edinburgh City sacked Naismith when they were 4 games unbeaten. Lost the first game after sacking him. We'll see how Maybury does, but if Stenny replace them as 4th - there's only a 2 point gap - is sacking Naismith the right decision?

End of April and Stenny manage to overtake Edinburgh City and secure 4th - is that a great endorsement of the decision to sack their manager this late in the season?

He's referring to your original argument, that was no manager would take a job with 6 or 7 games to go.

This theory has been proven to be wrong.

 

[The Moonster]

4 minutes ago, sarti pooh said:

He's referring to your original argument, that was no manager would take a job with 6 or 7 games to go.

This theory has been proven to be wrong.

 

The original argument was we couldn't afford to sack him, then it was "who will replace him?", and now we're at "our board just aren't good enough to do it". I tend to agree on the last point tbh, but when the question is "does the manager deserve to keep his job?" the answer is no. BSF agrees there so I find the last few pages of justifying the boards inaction a bit strange. 

[BallochSonsFan]

36 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

The original argument was we couldn't afford to sack him, then it was "who will replace him?", and now we're at "our board just aren't good enough to do it". I tend to agree on the last point tbh, but when the question is "does the manager deserve to keep his job?" the answer is no. BSF agrees there so I find the last few pages of justifying the boards inaction a bit strange. 

It's all part of the same root cause.

Alloa can go out and replace Ferguson with Brian Rice because they have money that we don't. We don't have the money to appoint that calibre of manager. If we sack Farrell and McKeown then we need to pay them off. We then need to find money for the new manager's wages and, potentially, money to pay compensation if the new manager happens to want to come to us from another club. Money we don't have. We no longer play at the More Room stadium, we now play at the Dumbarton Football Stadium. We play at the Dumbarton Football Stadium because More Room stiffed us for the sponsorship money.

How about appointing from within? Genuinely, who in the current squad is going to wave the magic wand and make us better? McGeever doesnt suddenly become Mourinho just because he isnt playing and has nothing else to do on match day. Paul Paton? Paddy Boyle? How about giving the gig to whatever fan wants it on any given Saturday?

Then there's the Naismith argument. Edinburgh City sacked him when they were 4th and unbeaten in 4 games. They lost the first game after he was sacked. Naismith is available right now - he wasn't good enough to get past us in last season's play-offs when we were largely shite and Edinburgh City didnt think he was good enough to take them up via the play-offs. We really want a guy who was sacked by a team in the league below us? Really? They appointed Alan Maybury as caretaker. We'll see whether that was the right move at the end of the season.

But surely the club should have a list of potential candidates if the worst should happen and we need to recruit a manager at short notice? If you're Rangers and paying a director of football then sure. f**k, if you're Dundee and paying Gordon Strachan then maybe, We're not. We've got Colin Hosie and that's it. Does Colin have an extensive network of contacts in Scottish football he can turn to in order to pick up a new manager at short notice?

Which takes us to the root cause of the problem.

We're skint and we lack a club board with sufficient football experience and contacts. We're skint, which impacts on our ability to pay compensation to Farrell and McKeown and to recruit a new manager. We've got a makeshift board with only Colin having any significant experience of running a football club. We don't have the scope to tap shoulders and pick our next manager at short notice. There's not an abundance of managers out there who are both out of work and looking to join a club that's heading towards relegation. I've yet to see anybody suggest a viable alternative right now. The closest I've seen is Gary Naismith, and he wasn't good enough to beat us last season and was sacked by a League Two club this month. If Stevie Aitken turned up today and offered to replace Farrell, would anybody accept that?

I don't want Farrell as Dumbarton manager, but I don't trust the club board to replace him. We don't have the money to throw at sacking him and McKeown and bringing in a replacement. Why don't we have the money? Why did the club board wait so long in the naive hope that £35k would be forthcoming from the chancing b*****ds who offered to sponsor us? We don't have a board with the contacts to tap shoulders and get somebody decent in at short notice. Not with 6 games of the season left. The board should have taken action in January. They didnt take action when they had a fighting chance of making the right decision and they won't take action now because they know that they'd struggle to replace him with anybody at such short notice who would be capable of making a difference. We lost 2 directors and the financial officer from the club earlier in the season and it seems that we've appointed a professional hide and seek champion.

The real villains in all of this? Our board of directors who didn't take action when they could and who won't take action now because they know that they can't. Farrell is part of the problem, but the root cause of all of this is a board of directors who have mismanaged us all year. There's no point demanding an absolute hail mary punt on a new manager now. We don't have the money to appoint somebody worth appointing and we don't have the kind of board with the contacts to pull a rabbit out the hat. I'm not justifying the board's actions. I hold them completely accountable and to blame for this mess. I'm just not clinging on to any kind of false hope that they'll suddenly decide to take action.

[Boghead ranter]

10 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

 How about giving the gig to whatever fan wants it on any given Saturday?

 

I've already got that angle covered, thanks.

[The Moonster]

24 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

It's all part of the same root cause.

Alloa can go out and replace Ferguson with Brian Rice because they have money that we don't. We don't have the money to appoint that calibre of manager. If we sack Farrell and McKeown then we need to pay them off. We then need to find money for the new manager's wages and, potentially, money to pay compensation if the new manager happens to want to come to us from another club. Money we don't have. We no longer play at the More Room stadium, we now play at the Dumbarton Football Stadium. We play at the Dumbarton Football Stadium because More Room stiffed us for the sponsorship money.

How about appointing from within? Genuinely, who in the current squad is going to wave the magic wand and make us better? McGeever doesnt suddenly become Mourinho just because he isnt playing and has nothing else to do on match day. Paul Paton? Paddy Boyle? How about giving the gig to whatever fan wants it on any given Saturday?

Then there's the Naismith argument. Edinburgh City sacked him when they were 4th and unbeaten in 4 games. They lost the first game after he was sacked. Naismith is available right now - he wasn't good enough to get past us in last season's play-offs when we were largely shite and Edinburgh City didnt think he was good enough to take them up via the play-offs. We really want a guy who was sacked by a team in the league below us? Really? They appointed Alan Maybury as caretaker. We'll see whether that was the right move at the end of the season.

But surely the club should have a list of potential candidates if the worst should happen and we need to recruit a manager at short notice? If you're Rangers and paying a director of football then sure. f**k, if you're Dundee and paying Gordon Strachan then maybe, We're not. We've got Colin Hosie and that's it. Does Colin have an extensive network of contacts in Scottish football he can turn to in order to pick up a new manager at short notice?

Which takes us to the root cause of the problem.

We're skint and we lack a club board with sufficient football experience and contacts. We're skint, which impacts on our ability to pay compensation to Farrell and McKeown and to recruit a new manager. We've got a makeshift board with only Colin having any significant experience of running a football club. We don't have the scope to tap shoulders and pick our next manager at short notice. There's not an abundance of managers out there who are both out of work and looking to join a club that's heading towards relegation. I've yet to see anybody suggest a viable alternative right now. The closest I've seen is Gary Naismith, and he wasn't good enough to beat us last season and was sacked by a League Two club this month. If Stevie Aitken turned up today and offered to replace Farrell, would anybody accept that?

I don't want Farrell as Dumbarton manager, but I don't trust the club board to replace him. We don't have the money to throw at sacking him and McKeown and bringing in a replacement. Why don't we have the money? Why did the club board wait so long in the naive hope that £35k would be forthcoming from the chancing b*****ds who offered to sponsor us? We don't have a board with the contacts to tap shoulders and get somebody decent in at short notice. Not with 6 games of the season left. The board should have taken action in January. They didnt take action when they had a fighting chance of making the right decision and they won't take action now because they know that they'd struggle to replace him with anybody at such short notice who would be capable of making a difference. We lost 2 directors and the financial officer from the club earlier in the season and it seems that we've appointed a professional hide and seek champion.

The real villains in all of this? Our board of directors who didn't take action when they could and who won't take action now because they know that they can't. Farrell is part of the problem, but the root cause of all of this is a board of directors who have mismanaged us all year. There's no point demanding an absolute hail mary punt on a new manager now. We don't have the money to appoint somebody worth appointing and we don't have the kind of board with the contacts to pull a rabbit out the hat. I'm not justifying the board's actions. I hold them completely accountable and to blame for this mess. I'm just not clinging on to any kind of false hope that they'll suddenly decide to take action.

I don't really understand what you want from others here. We all seem to be in agreement that Faz isn't suitable for his job and neither are the club board. You seem to be saying everyone should stop calling for the manager or board to go because you don't think it will happen. If you think we're wasting our time calling for action fair enough but it doesn't mean we are wrong in asking for an out of depth manager to be emptied. 

[BallochSonsFan]

Just now, The Moonster said:

I don't really understand what you want from others here. We all seem to be in agreement that Faz isn't suitable for his job and neither are the club board. You seem to be saying everyone should stop calling for the manager or board to go because you don't think it will happen. If you think we're wasting our time calling for action fair enough but it doesn't mean we are wrong in asking for an out of depth manager to be emptied. 

To stop wasting time believing that the board are even remotely likely to sack Farrell and to start getting angry at the board for the way we've been mismanaged this season. Farrell is a side show to the underlying problems at the club. We're not sacking him. There's no point getting angry because we're not sacking him. It's time to get angry at the reasons why we're 6 games away from the end of the season with an underperforming manager. It's long since time to be very angry with our board of directors for letting things get to this stage rather than because with 6 games to go they're not going to change things now.

Focusing on Farrell and moaning that we're not sacking him is a side show from the problems within the club that mean that sacking him now isnt even remotely viable.

[The Moonster]

3 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

To stop wasting time believing that the board are even remotely likely to sack Farrell and to start getting angry at the board for the way we've been mismanaged this season. Farrell is a side show to the underlying problems at the club. We're not sacking him. There's no point getting angry because we're not sacking him. It's time to get angry at the reasons why we're 6 games away from the end of the season with an underperforming manager. It's long since time to be very angry with our board of directors for letting things get to this stage rather than because with 6 games to go they're not going to change things now.

Focusing on Farrell and moaning that we're not sacking him is a side show from the problems within the club that mean that sacking him now isnt even remotely viable.

No arguments from me there, I've made it very clear this board don't have my support. Faz is still out of depth and deserves to go, he can take Colin Pie, the Norwegians and the four architects with him. 

[vikingTON]

5 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

To stop wasting time believing that the board are even remotely likely to sack Farrell and to start getting angry at the board for the way we've been mismanaged this season. Farrell is a side show to the underlying problems at the club. We're not sacking him. There's no point getting angry because we're not sacking him. It's time to get angry at the reasons why we're 6 games away from the end of the season with an underperforming manager. It's long since time to be very angry with our board of directors for letting things get to this stage rather than because with 6 games to go they're not going to change things now.

Focusing on Farrell and moaning that we're not sacking him is a side show from the problems within the club that mean that sacking him now isnt even remotely viable.

Why can't people be angry at your crap board and angry at your crap manager at the same time? In what way are they mutually competing sentiments? 

As wagon-circling goes this is a particularly pathetic last stand. Probably one post away from 'End of ' being thrown in like a classic Facebook maw debate. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by vikingTON

[BallochSonsFan]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

Why can't people be angry at your crap board and angry at your crap manager at the same time? In what way are they mutually competing sentiments? 

As wagon-circling goes this is a particularly pathetic last stand. Probably one post away from 'End of ' being thrown in like a classic Facebook maw debate. 

People can be angry at Farrell. I certainly am. He looks like he's lost the dressing room a few weeks ago and that's why he has resorted to the shite we've seen  in his post game interviews.

But believing that we're in a position to change him and it being anything other than more of the same shite show on the park is fantasy stuff. The time to sack Farrell was late January. Early Feb at the very latest. Its time to focus on the reasons why we didn't sack Farrell back then and why we're not going to sack him now.

Board of directors should have taken steps regarding the sponsorship money 4-5 months ago. If this shower hadn't paid by Halloween then the board should have been taking action. Instead we've got a More Room sized hole in our budget. They should have been having a frank conversation with Farrell back in January/February.

Its time to look at the bigger picture.

[the snudge]

New kits are sexy as f**k for next season!

[The Moonster]

7 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

People can be angry at Farrell. I certainly am. He looks like he's lost the dressing room a few weeks ago and that's why he has resorted to the shite we've seen  in his post game interviews.

But believing that we're in a position to change him and it being anything other than more of the same shite show on the park is fantasy stuff. 

You genuinely don't think changing a manager that has lost the dressing room would change performances? 

[BallochSonsFan]

Just now, The Moonster said:

You genuinely don't think changing a manager that has lost the dressing room would change performances? 

Not with 6 games left and a lack of resources or contacts to bring in a decent manager.

Gary Naismith is available right now. If Naismith fancied it then is he a better option than Farrell? A guy who was sacked by his last club and whose team struggled against Duffy's gang last year in the play-offs.

January? There's time to try and recruit. Last weekend of March? There isn't. 

[The Moonster]

5 minutes ago, the snudge said:

New kits are sexy as f**k for next season!

How can you tell? The graphics we've put up are pixelated beyond belief. What is that shit on the back of the tops? Just looks like a grey blob.