Sons' sorrow

[FifeSons]

2 minutes ago, pleslie99 said:

I so agree with this and your 2nd paragraph hits the nail on the head with regards to the playing side for me. Most of us were happy with Farrell in the summer. Most were happy with the signings and were excited with them, it had the basis of a decent squad. Maybe we were just caught up on the nostalgia of seeing some old faces back, reminiscing about the good old times when Buchanan, Boyle, Geggan etc put in top drawer performances and moved on to bigger and better things.

True, the signings looked good on paper at the start of the season. When it doesn’t work out though, that doesn’t mean the manager gets a free pass because we agreed at the time they were good signings. He ultimately takes the blame when it doesn’t work out.

Those signings also suggested we were working with a competitive enough budget. Certainly enough not to be the embarrassment we are right now.

[Jordo1872]

3 minutes ago, Robertsons said:

Absolutely….Alan had a key role and I  acknowledge  his role in bringing supporters together for the benefit of the club. I guess my question is how do fans stay involved and is the trust currently active.

In my opinion Alan played a huge role in the clubs day to day operation and took a lot of flack for his efforts. Some of it warranted on occasion, a lot of it not. He had a lot of critics. I don’t think any have stepped forward tkk on so a bette r job in his absence.

The club are active although a lot of planned engagement has been hampered by COVID, like everything else it seems at present. There has been a couple of news bulletins put out recently in an attempt to improve correspondence in the short term. Neither received much of a response, here or elsewhere. I can assure you the Trust are actively on the case behind the scenes and part of that process is allowing the club due time to respond to our concerns, all of which are highlighted here over the previous pages. 
 

In the very near future we’re going to need a concerted effort from everyone and the Trust is going to be central to that effort. Any contribution that supporters can offer would be great fully received.

[BallochSonsFan]

21 minutes ago, DobbiesAgent said:

I think even the trust are struggling to come to terms with how far we have fallen…

From an outsider looking in…I think after he stepped aside it’s easy now for all to see how much Alan Findlay done for the trust, I don’t know the ins and outs of it but since he’s left I don’t think anyone that’s replaced him in his role has been as vocal or commutative to supporters as he was and I think that goes a long way to keep people turning up when you feel like you have a supporters trust fighting your best interests 

 

I worked with Alan when I was on the trust board. I also sat directly in front of him when he still attended games. Alan Findlay did a huge amount of work that a lot of fans never new about and few appreciated. What probably sums Alan up best is the run up to our Christmas hospitality day a few years ago. The previous caterer wasn't happy at the club's decision to maximise covers with the 2 course festive hospitality day, There were no plans to do anything to make the day even remotely festive before a plea went out to a few of us to help our with decorations. I flew in from Germany on the Monday, spend the tuesday buying as many boxes of crackers as B&M had in stock and the Thursday night decorating the hospitality suite with decorations that a few other fans had bought. The saturday morning came and I went along to the ground about 10:00 to help out. Alan had been there since around 8:30 am to get things set up. Between the 2 of us we sorted our raffles, 50/50s, a few last minute things that we had to do on the day, the hospitality lunch quiz, watched the game itself and then did man of the match. I got home at 6 that night. Alan was still at the ground when I left. In addition to his role as commercial director and his role on the trust board, Alan would get involved in whatever the club needed him to do. When he stood down it was a huge job trying to fill all of the roles and cover all of the work that Alan did. In many cases it was necessity because nobody else was willing or able to devote the time needed to help out. The way that things ended with Alan and his decision to stand down is still something that I'm personally really saddened by because we lost an incredible asset to the club and a thoroughly decent bloke too.

As for whether or not the trust is active? It absolutely is. Unfortunately with any voluntary organisation, it's only as strong as it;s membership. A strong trust can only really happen with a fully engaged and very active membership. It's difficult to undertake normal trust business during Covid. I had to step away from the trust board due to a change in work commitments. By a stroke of luck, it also coincided with an increase in caring duties at home and there's no way I could have continued to do 50/50, man of the match, be on the trust board and deal with changes in work and at home. People don't really appreciate the extent of the demands placed on the trust board until they get involved. Thats not a criticism of anybody, but its an observation based on my 5 years on the board. The trust board are all volunteers and are balancing the demands of the trust with the demands of life in general. There's also the challenge of trying to cultivate constructive relationships with the club board throughout all of it's changes and with the ownership. I dealt with Stainton and Wilson and it was a very interesting experience. Eye opening for sure and it took a lot of time to make sure we were in a position to ask the difficult questions armed with proper information. With the change in ownership, the trust has essentially had to go back to square 1 when now dealing with the likes of Henning Kristofferson. It's a massive challenge and one that I know the current board are very actively involved in. Hopefully Covid restrictions will ease and the trust will be in a position to be more visible with the membership. It's a difficult time for a lot of organisations and the trust is no different, doing it's absolute best in frustratingly difficult current circumstances. 

[FifeSons]

2 hours ago, microdave said:

2 hours ago, FifeSons said:

Another manager’s fund could’ve be a shout prior to January. But with the cost of living skyrocketing and impact of covid on everyone’s finances, I can’t imagine we’d raise much. Not to mention the current apathy amongst the fan base due to the performances being served up.
Also, I’m not sure there’d be any point entrusting Farrell with it. 
 
Probably not a good shout at all, actually.

The manager's fund is still going afaik. The club could do more to publicise it though. There's been no mention of it on the os since it was used for Calum Wilson's contract on the 6th October. There should be a link to it on the sidebar imo.

 

40 minutes ago, Jordo1872 said:

There is a Manager’s Fund. It’s not a one off initiative but a rolling fund that people contribute to monthly. Albeit the uptake hasn’t been great.

Thanks. I really had no idea it was still in existence.

[Jordo1872]

8 minutes ago, FifeSons said:

 

Thanks. I really had no idea it was still in existence.

Recent news article with information on the MF here mate:

https://www.dumbartonfootballclub.com/news/?mode=view&id=4998

 

[OKsons2020]

I have trusted farrell for years to negotiate a half decent pay deal for the vocation I was in , he was full of promise  from day one and on my 14 year was still trying to deliver the promise he had set . 

He fires blanks !!!!!  There are others on here more quified to discuss legal reasons , business plans and what not . Thats beyond me   . But one thing I know , I have been a fairly new fan to the club in the last 5 years and I am as passionate about seeing the success of Dumbarton and survival as everyone else . The only folk interested is the supporters , wither they go to home games, away games or tune in as and when they can .

We went to Peterhead and got pumped off bottom of the league.  I was on the only supporters bus we took but met by several familiar faces insee down at the rock,  same with East Fife,  and all other away games . The club needs to be in the hands of the people . 

Community links with Dumbarton access , Vale juniors , St pats all the way back to the kids level .    Even tap into old Kilpatrick,  clydebank teams . 

 

We need to set up some sort of development , reserve and incentive to bring the future through . 

 

I remember stevie Gérard saying he always believed in putting the future around the park , ball boys  . So they could look on , be inspired and aspire to get on that pitch one day . 

My son was pulled from the crowd a few weeks ago to be a ball boy and his world lit up , he was back on the pitch and beside his heroes   . 

He also appeared as a mascot under Duffy and was treated so well , taken into the dressing room,  warmed up on the pitch,  hit shots into our host / guide . For a kid that's as good as being a pro . 

In there somewhere,  there is a club , players , professionals as they all aspire to be . Some if not most , gifted with opertunity to do something half of us would,  for a fraction of what they are getting  .

What the team needs , and I am sorry to say it is a Barry ferguson at alloa , an Ian Murray,  Paul Hartley.  An ex pro who doesn't give a fcuk about the Ps and Qs . Gets in the dressing room , boots off the wall and tell the snow flakes to grow a set , man up and get out there and win 3 points . No meter how dirty , how hard or un fashionable.  Get points.  

 

As they say . Points win prizes. 

[FifeSons]

23 minutes ago, Jordo1872 said:

Recent news article with information on the MF here mate:

https://www.dumbartonfootballclub.com/news/?mode=view&id=4998

 

Cheers. Quite like that you can do a monthly option too.

[Jordo1872]

2 minutes ago, FifeSons said:

Cheers. Quite like that you can do a monthly option too.

Monthly option with not minimum term commitment and a guarantee that the money raised is ringfenced for the playing budget.

Incidentally that type of feedback is really valuable. The MF has been advertised on social medial and on the club website, and would have been pushed further had Covid not restricted match day attendances, but clearly we need to make it more easily accessible. So to show the Trust board do listen (it’s a Trust initiative rather than a club one) I’ve spoken to the club’s website this evening and we’ll get a link added to the navigation pane on the home page shortly, which should help going forward.

[Robertsons]

34 minutes ago, Jordo1872 said:

In my opinion Alan played a huge role in the clubs day to day operation and took a lot of flack for his efforts. Some of it warranted on occasion, a lot of it not. He had a lot of critics. I don’t think any have stepped forward tkk on so a bette r job in his absence.

The club are active although a lot of planned engagement has been hampered by COVID, like everything else it seems at present. There has been a couple of news bulletins put out recently in an attempt to improve correspondence in the short term. Neither received much of a response, here or elsewhere. I can assure you the Trust are actively on the case behind the scenes and part of that process is allowing the club due time to respond to our concerns, all of which are highlighted here over the previous pages. 
 

In the very near future we’re going to need a concerted effort from everyone and the Trust is going to be central to that effort. Any contribution that supporters can offer would be great fully received.

Thanks for your reply Jordo. My comments are not intended to be critical of the trust or those who have stepped up. I believe the trust is central in fighting supporters interests in the future. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

41 minutes ago, DobbiesAgent said:

I think even the trust are struggling to come to terms with how far we have fallen…

From an outsider looking in…I think after he stepped aside it’s easy now for all to see how much Alan Findlay done for the trust, I don’t know the ins and outs of it but since he’s left I don’t think anyone that’s replaced him in his role has been as vocal or commutative to supporters as he was and I think that goes a long way to keep people turning up when you feel like you have a supporters trust fighting your best interests 

 

As a joint founder of the Sonstrust with Alan Findlay, and as a returning and current Board member please let me try and give you the current picture.

It may be a cliche but any fan grouping is ultimately only as strong as the most committed within its membership.  In that respect we were fortunate to have Alan's passion and drive as both a founder and then the club's first-ever Community Director representing the Trust on the club Board of Directors.  And make no mistake, he was indeed the Trust's guy on the Board and not the other way around.  Alan's departure removed a very sizeable presence in both bodies, and his workrate and hands-on involvement have in my opinion never been fully replaced.  He had his detractors but no-one should underestimate his huge contribution, and we all miss it.

Fast-forward to the present day and the Trust is in truth a less dynamic body.  Reflecting the club's slide down the divisions with the associated drops in both attendances and general interest in the football club, our membership numbers and general enthusiasm have suffered.    Covid has meant that in-person meetings have been curtailed and fan-facing communication has become problematic.  Nevertheless, for many months now we have been monitoring events on and off the pitch with growing concern, and every Trust member should have received newsletters over the last year outlining this.  More recently an Email was circulated attaching a letter with detailed questions from the Trust Chairman David Brownlee to DFC Chairman Neil McKay; I'm pleased to report that a courteous reply has now been received and a provisional date suggested for a meeting.  

What is a bit dispiriting is that we seldom receive feedback from these communications, but there seems to be no shortage of 'What Is The Trust Doing ?' type posts on here.  I've no problem with criticism as long as it is informed, but people also need to realise that the Trust is a volunteer organisation dealing with what is now a fast-evolving situation at an increasingly quixotically-run professional football club.

[BallochSonsFan]

14 minutes ago, OKsons2020 said:

I have trusted farrell for years to negotiate a half decent pay deal for the vocation I was in , he was full of promise  from day one and on my 14 year was still trying to deliver the promise he had set . 

He fires blanks !!!!!  There are others on here more quified to discuss legal reasons , business plans and what not . Thats beyond me   . But one thing I know , I have been a fairly new fan to the club in the last 5 years and I am as passionate about seeing the success of Dumbarton and survival as everyone else . The only folk interested is the supporters , wither they go to home games, away games or tune in as and when they can .

We went to Peterhead and got pumped off bottom of the league.  I was on the only supporters bus we took but met by several familiar faces insee down at the rock,  same with East Fife,  and all other away games . The club needs to be in the hands of the people . 

Community links with Dumbarton access , Vale juniors , St pats all the way back to the kids level .    Even tap into old Kilpatrick,  clydebank teams . 

 

We need to set up some sort of development , reserve and incentive to bring the future through . 

 

I remember stevie Gérard saying he always believed in putting the future around the park , ball boys  . So they could look on , be inspired and aspire to get on that pitch one day . 

My son was pulled from the crowd a few weeks ago to be a ball boy and his world lit up , he was back on the pitch and beside his heroes   . 

He also appeared as a mascot under Duffy and was treated so well , taken into the dressing room,  warmed up on the pitch,  hit shots into our host / guide . For a kid that's as good as being a pro . 

In there somewhere,  there is a club , players , professionals as they all aspire to be . Some if not most , gifted with opertunity to do something half of us would,  for a fraction of what they are getting  .

What the team needs , and I am sorry to say it is a Barry ferguson at alloa , an Ian Murray,  Paul Hartley.  An ex pro who doesn't give a fcuk about the Ps and Qs . Gets in the dressing room , boots off the wall and tell the snow flakes to grow a set , man up and get out there and win 3 points . No meter how dirty , how hard or un fashionable.  Get points.  

 

As they say . Points win prizes. 

All the shouting in the world won't make shite players better players.

Shouting at Paddy Boyle and Andy Geggen doesnt make them the players they were 10 years ago. It doesnt make Callum Wilson confident and consistent. It doesnt make Ramsbottom a better keeper. You hope that a good coach can develop the likes of Wilson and that a smart one can set us out better and help cut out some of the mistakes. Unfortunately we just don't have the quality of player we need in key areas. We've got 4 or 5 decent players in the squad. It's a squad that Faz built, so he carries the can for that. It's arguable that beyond the likes of Carlo, McLean, possibly Duthie and a couple of out of form players like McKee and Wilson, there are very few in that squad who are good enough. Changing that takes more than shouting and I wouldn't have a Barry Ferguson type anywhere near us.

 

As for the rest of it? Youth development takes money. We were spending on our youth/reserves set-up with absolutely no end product. Nobody was coming through and either moving for a fee or becoming established first team players. SFA funding was cut massively. We didnt really have any choice. We're seeing the consequences now - I believe that it's a massive challenge finding local youngsters from youth football sides who would even consider giving up their saturday afternoon to cover as ball boys/girls at a Sons home game. And the challenges in attracting new fans are huge. 

[Jordo1872]

14 minutes ago, OKsons2020 said:

Community links with Dumbarton access , Vale juniors , St pats all the way back to the kids level .    Even tap into old Kilpatrick,  clydebank teams . 

We need to set up some sort of development , reserve and incentive to bring the future through . 

I think we can all agree on this. There has been a lot of good work done recently with links being set up with Dumbarton Utd and Renton Craigandro, and a lot of proactive community engagement led by Neil McKay as far as I know.

Unfortunately we’re dealing with a legacy where the club failed to do this properly and that’s led to a lot of apathy towards the club from the local community. It has to be a two-way relationship and I can see the club moving in the right direction in that regard, but it’ll. take time to properly reap the rewards. We should also be honest thought in that the best way to engage, build your supporter base and increase revenue, certainly in the short term, is by putting a winning team on the park; but community engagement is what generates sustainable growth.

[Guest]

We need more, we deserve better. Our club deserves better. I’ve been brought up since 3 going to Dumbarton games every single week and I don’t want to see us tumble down divisions. 
 

maybe I’ve been fortunate over the last 25 years and seen a golden era or lucky that I was brought up when kids of the community were ball boys, and we had a mascot every week and for as low as we were in the divisions we had the flags and banners out across the home end. Our club deserves more than a board that is currently sitting back happy with defeat. 
 

in short I went from watching us from the depths to a cup game at Celtic park, a league title, a promotion play off victory, remarkable seasons in the championship beating some huge teams in this country! All the way to a Scottish cup quarter final and cup final. All to have it ripped away in 3 seasons? From Fraserburgh all the way to Wales I think I’ve watched the sons just about everywhere but my god I think I’d like to leave out the highland league grounds for now! 

[Nowhereman]

I also think the hosie/moreroom/Brabco debate is the least of our worries. It won’t change on the pitch and that’s where change is needed now 

The least of our worries? Are you serious?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

As a joint founder of the Sonstrust with Alan Findlay, and as a returning and current Board member please let me try and give you the current picture.

It may be a cliche but any fan grouping is ultimately only as strong as the most committed within its membership.  In that respect we were fortunate to have Alan's passion and drive as both a founder and then the club's first-ever Community Director representing the Trust on the club Board of Directors.  And make no mistake, he was indeed the Trust's guy on the Board and not the other way around.  Alan's departure removed a very sizeable presence in both bodies, and his workrate and hands-on involvement have in my opinion never been fully replaced.  He had his detractors but no-one should underestimate his huge contribution, and we all miss it.

Fast-forward to the present day and the Trust is in truth a less dynamic body.  Reflecting the club's slide down the divisions with the associated drops in both attendances and general interest in the football club, our membership numbers and general enthusiasm have suffered.    Covid has meant that in-person meetings have been curtailed and fan-facing communication has become problematic.  Nevertheless, for many months now we have been monitoring events on and off the pitch with growing concern, and every Trust member should have received newsletters over the last year outlining this.  More recently an Email was circulated attaching a letter with detailed questions from the Trust Chairman David Brownlee to DFC Chairman Neil McKay; I'm pleased to report that a courteous reply has now been received and a provisional date suggested for a meeting.  

What is a bit dispiriting is that we seldom receive feedback from these communications, but there seems to be no shortage of 'What Is The Trust Doing ?' type posts on here.  I've no problem with criticism as long as it is informed, but people also need to realise that the Trust is a volunteer organisation dealing with what is now a fast-evolving situation at an increasingly quixotically-run professional football club.

I’m sorry but if you can have 500 people in a stadium…or have a supporters bar open. You can have a trust meeting for the members we have 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

All the shouting in the world won't make shite players better players.

Shouting at Paddy Boyle and Andy Geggen doesnt make them the players they were 10 years ago. It doesnt make Callum Wilson confident and consistent. It doesnt make Ramsbottom a better keeper. You hope that a good coach can develop the likes of Wilson and that a smart one can set us out better and help cut out some of the mistakes. Unfortunately we just don't have the quality of player we need in key areas. We've got 4 or 5 decent players in the squad. It's a squad that Faz built, so he carries the can for that. It's arguable that beyond the likes of Carlo, McLean, possibly Duthie and a couple of out of form players like McKee and Wilson, there are very few in that squad who are good enough. Changing that takes more than shouting and I wouldn't have a Barry Ferguson type anywhere near us.

 

As for the rest of it? Youth development takes money. We were spending on our youth/reserves set-up with absolutely no end product. Nobody was coming through and either moving for a fee or becoming established first team players. SFA funding was cut massively. We didnt really have any choice. We're seeing the consequences now - I believe that it's a massive challenge finding local youngsters from youth football sides who would even consider giving up their saturday afternoon to cover as ball boys/girls at a Sons home game. And the challenges in attracting new fans are huge. 

I’m sorry again the sfa funding etc is an excuse about finding young players etc. Truth of it is. The managers we have had in recently would rather sign their mates or their pals from previous clubs than go and take the chance on a hardworking youngster. Where as, as they are isolated the likes of Peterhead and Montrose etc don’t have a choice and they have a far better squad of youth dashed with experience than we do! 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

The least of our worries? Are you serious?

Did u see that fucking mess today? 

[OKsons2020]

[BallochSonsFan]

1 minute ago, DobbiesAgent said:

I’m sorry but if you can have 500 people in a stadium…or have a supporters bar open. You can have a trust meeting for the members we have 

It doesnt really work like that.

In normal circumstances there would have been a trust AGM. That would have been a good opportunity for the membership to ask questions of the trust board. But in terms of a public meeting, that kind of thing has to have a purpose. It can't just be a grumbling session. The trust were previously able to arrange public meetings with the club board and with the previous owners. Those were arranged when there was a clear purpose but it took a hell of a lot of ground work to get to a point where the likes of Chris Stainton or Ian Wilson would appear before fans and answer questions. it remains to be seen whether or not the trust can get to a similar state with Henning Kristofferson or anybody else now involved in an ownership capacity at Dumbarton. It'll take a lot of work to build enough of a relationship where a meeting with Kristofferson would be even remotely likely to happen. In the mean time, what kind of meeting do you want with the trust?

Thats not a dig, but a serious question. We need a strong trust and that means that we need a really engaged membership. So the trust calls an all members meeting but can't tell it's membership a huge amount because either it's finding it difficult to work with Kristofferson or things are at a very initial stage where information can't yet be made public. If Alan, Simon and I on the trust board and Stevie Lynch had went public with even half of the things that we discussed during our meetings with Stainton and Wilson then all it would have achieved is ensuring that the owners refused any further contact with the trust or with the fans and that they'd become openly hostile towards us. They even went as far as to suggest that the 4 of us sign a legally binding non-disclosure agreement (which we refused to do). What happens then? Do members become disengaged because the trust board can't give them chapter and verse and because it's not rousing them to pick up pitchforks and light torches? The time for that may well be coming but a meeting for the sake of it doesnt really achieve much. Any trust member can speak with the trust board at a Sons home game. It could perhaps be done in a more structured way. I know that it was spoken about when I was on the trust board, but there's absolutely no reason why any trust member can't talk with trust board members at a Sons home game. Maybe that means trust board members being more visible and having a clear trust area within the community suite where members can come over and ask questions? Thats certainly one way that the trust could be more visible. But if you're looking to get trust members together for a meeting then there has to be a clear purpose. If not then what does it actually achieve?

[BallochSonsFan]

20 minutes ago, DobbiesAgent said:

I’m sorry again the sfa funding etc is an excuse about finding young players etc. Truth of it is. The managers we have had in recently would rather sign their mates or their pals from previous clubs than go and take the chance on a hardworking youngster. Where as, as they are isolated the likes of Peterhead and Montrose etc don’t have a choice and they have a far better squad of youth dashed with experience than we do! 

Its not an excuse.

Finding young players? If you're talking about Dumbarton being able to sign youngsters at 18/19/20 who are being released from top flight club academies then money talks. Hamilton signed Matthew Shiels when he was released from Rangers. The same Matthew Shiels who was absolutely hopeless on loan for us. The best youngsters will end up at Championship sides or at the kind of League One/League Two teams that can pay them a decent wage. Cove. Queens Park. Falklirk. Kelty. We're not competing with those teams to sign the best youngsters deemed not good enough for Rangers or Celtic. We signed young Wilson when Hibs released him - he hasn't been the model of consistency. The best young players will go to full time teams or to part time teams with bigger budgets than ours because money talks. And a team of 11 Callum Wilsons might be a romantic idea but real life isnt like FM. You can''t build a team of kids released from top flight academies, pay them peanuts and expect them to do anything other than struggle.

Peterhead have a couple of decent youngsters on loan. Montrose have a budget that exceeds ours. Both teams benefit from there being little competition in their respective areas. Some West of Scotland players will be paid more by the likes of Auchinleck than we're paying some of our players. We went down that route when we signed the likes of McLuskey - that didnt work out well for us.

So the alternative would presumably be to develop our own? Who was the last Dumbarton youth player to make any kind of impact on the first team squad? Running a youth/reserve team structure was costing the club serious money for absolutely no end product. When SFA funding was cut, the club really had no choice but to disband its teams outside of the first team. The money just wasnt there to fund something that did absolutely nothing to benefit the club on the pitch.