Sons' sorrow

[The Moonster]

We look totally fucked. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

8 hours ago, The Moonster said:

We look totally fucked. 

Nothing that has happened recently will come as a major surprise to anyone who has been closely monitoring the situation at the club.  That situation is very concerning but the club will only be fucked if everyone adopts the role of inactive onlooker - I can assure you that is definitely NOT happening.

[The Moonster]

56 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Nothing that has happened recently will come as a major surprise to anyone who has been closely monitoring the situation at the club.  That situation is very concerning but the club will only be fucked if everyone adopts the role of inactive onlooker - I can assure you that is definitely NOT happening.

I'm not sure I agree, OK. More than half of the board leaving in a week is a major surprise to anyone who hasn't been privy to conversations with our new owners. Sons fans were told we had full time football and an ambitious future to look forward to in the summer and 4 months on John Steele and half the board no longer want to be a part of that future. When guys who I know for certain only have the club at heart are walking away, relinquishing any sort of power or authority they may have had to fight things from the inside, it's a major shock. If we really are talking about existential stuff, we need folk to stand on the soap box and tell us the situation. This news was revealed over a series of riddles on here, followed by some meekly reported statements from the club about how everyone has the clubs well wishes in moving on. But the reality seems different from that, nobody seems to get on with the owners, yet nobody seems to want to come out and tell us what the fucks going on, or why they felt the need to resign. 

If the average Sons fan is not to be an inactive onlooker, info needs shared and an action plan made. There is nothing I or any other Sons fan can do when information isn't being shared, and I don't mean info shared through a series of private conversations, get the cards on the table for every Sons fan to see. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

31 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I'm not sure I agree, OK. More than half of the board leaving in a week is a major surprise to anyone who hasn't been privy to conversations with our new owners. Sons fans were told we had full time football and an ambitious future to look forward to in the summer and 4 months on John Steele and half the board no longer want to be a part of that future. When guys who I know for certain only have the club at heart are walking away, relinquishing any sort of power or authority they may have had to fight things from the inside, it's a major shock. If we really are talking about existential stuff, we need folk to stand on the soap box and tell us the situation. This news was revealed over a series of riddles on here, followed by some meekly reported statements from the club about how everyone has the clubs well wishes in moving on. But the reality seems different from that, nobody seems to get on with the owners, yet nobody seems to want to come out and tell us what the fucks going on, or why they felt the need to resign. 

If the average Sons fan is not to be an inactive onlooker, info needs shared and an action plan made. There is nothing I or any other Sons fan can do when information isn't being shared, and I don't mean info shared through a series of private conversations, get the cards on the table for every Sons fan to see. 

The short answer to this is that when the takeover was announced there was hope, ill-founded it now appears, that the club was headed in a different, more positive direction.

The recent resignations are confirmation that it is not, and we are now entering the next phase, one that appears more critical.

The recent Trust newsletter, which I note you did not receive, is a holding statement as this has been a fast-moving situation.

You are right regarding the warm, fuzzy rhetoric of the OS statements, so I'm delighted that after weeks of requests Trust reps will shortly meet with the club owners via a Zoom call.  Suffice to say there is much to discuss.

That will be reported ASAP.

 

 

[BallochSonsFan]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

I'm not sure I agree, OK. More than half of the board leaving in a week is a major surprise to anyone who hasn't been privy to conversations with our new owners. Sons fans were told we had full time football and an ambitious future to look forward to in the summer and 4 months on John Steele and half the board no longer want to be a part of that future. When guys who I know for certain only have the club at heart are walking away, relinquishing any sort of power or authority they may have had to fight things from the inside, it's a major shock. If we really are talking about existential stuff, we need folk to stand on the soap box and tell us the situation. This news was revealed over a series of riddles on here, followed by some meekly reported statements from the club about how everyone has the clubs well wishes in moving on. But the reality seems different from that, nobody seems to get on with the owners, yet nobody seems to want to come out and tell us what the fucks going on, or why they felt the need to resign. 

If the average Sons fan is not to be an inactive onlooker, info needs shared and an action plan made. There is nothing I or any other Sons fan can do when information isn't being shared, and I don't mean info shared through a series of private conversations, get the cards on the table for every Sons fan to see. 

You can only push the big red button once. The nuclear option is very much something to consider but you tend to find that football fans only become active when there's a real and current threat to the existence of the club. Where were Thistle and Falkirk fans before their moment of crisis? There was no Foundation of Hearts before Romanov took them to the brink. Trying to get fans engaged with the club is difficult at the best of times. You can only play the doomsday card once and actually get the full effect of an angry support that wants to be active. Doing that will naturally close off other options as the owners aren't going to engage with a group of fans whose sole purpose would at that point be to oppose them. Things have clearly changed over the past 4 months and the resignation of Stephen Lynch is probably the most concerning one as he had a hands on role at the club. If he feels that he can't continue in that role then it's absolutely cause for concern. There may well be something that can be done short of going to war with Hosie and Kristofferson. I'm sure the trust will find that out in the immediate future with whatever the owners decide to do next. If it comes to it and there has to be an all out war with the owners then I'm certain that there will be a clear plan, clear communication and that the fans will have plenty of opportunities to get involved. It's just not something that the trust can or should do lightly or in haste. There's potentially far too much at stake to get it wrong.

[Dunning1874]

Sorry for the ignorance of the outsider perspective here, but what can the new owners do that Brabco didn’t? If planning permission still isn't and won't be granted for a new ground, is there a risk they'll just turf you out entirely and leave you homeless, with the possibility a disinterested local council won't care about that with the land the current stadium sits on being opened up for development?

[The Moonster]

11 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Sorry for the ignorance of the outsider perspective here, but what can the new owners do that Brabco didn’t? If planning permission still isn't and won't be granted for a new ground, is there a risk they'll just turf you out entirely and leave you homeless, with the possibility a disinterested local council won't care about that with the land the current stadium sits on being opened up for development?

I think that's pretty much the worry, aye. If the planning for a new stadium fails (likely) or the funding for that move doesn't come to fruition (also likely) then there isn't much left for owners looking to make a profit other than selling the land we sit on. We have the Golden Shares there which were designed to try and stop that sort of situation happening but nobody has bothered to test its legal standing so far...Brabco didn't have the balls, heart or money to go down that road, but the Norwegians seem to have a slightly sterner approach to things. 

On the planning, there were a few things that were highlighted as completely unagreeable for the council (such as houses being built next to the new stadium) and it is suggested that the Norwegians have removed this stuff. I still don't think it will get through but it's clear they're trying to act on the feedback from the last planning hearing. 

[Passionate]

19 hours ago, The Moonster said:

We look totally fucked. 

Kinda looks like it,   as I mentioned previously Dumbarton are in' managed decline'.  Similar to our situation when Wotherspoon rode into town on his white charger at the end of the Ballantyne era,    Hopefully you can sort yourselves out,    is sharing with Vale of Leven an option if things go pete tong ....

Guid club etc.   

[BallochSonsFan]

46 minutes ago, Passionate said:

Kinda looks like it,   as I mentioned previously Dumbarton are in' managed decline'.  Similar to our situation when Wotherspoon rode into town on his white charger at the end of the Ballantyne era,    Hopefully you can sort yourselves out,    is sharing with Vale of Leven an option if things go pete tong ....

Guid club etc.   

I'd doubt it. Facilities at the Vale are really poor. No way would that be an option. It has lighting - not sure it constitutes floodlights - but a very basic covered shed that would hold a couple of hundred at best. No toilet facilities beyond the usual Junior ground latrines. The banks themselves aren't brilliantly maintained. Long term there's scope to develop Milburn if it ever came to it. There's room for a couple of stands and some toilet facilities. The grass pitch at Milburn was usually reasonably good but the ground itself is quite near the river and there's very poor access for anything more than a handful of fans. 

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

53 minutes ago, Passionate said:

Kinda looks like it,   as I mentioned previously Dumbarton are in' managed decline'.  Similar to our situation when Wotherspoon rode into town on his white charger at the end of the Ballantyne era,    Hopefully you can sort yourselves out,    is sharing with Vale of Leven an option if things go pete tong ....

Guid club etc.   

The Vale’s facilities are a million miles away from meeting SPFL standards unfortunately. You could probably build a new stadium for cheaper than what it would cost to upgrade the Milburn.

Lynch, Steele, Casey and Gordon chucking within a week is massively, massively conerning. Shit is about to hit the fan and I reckon it will happen very soon. Serious question for Sons fans out there… did any of you genuinely have hope that things would improve under a band of random Norweigans and English architects who had absolutely no connection to the club whatsoever? Their first and only communication with supporters was parody esque, surely no one thought this was going to end well!? Even before that absolutely daft statement I was terrified at what lay in store for us.

 

[sonsanorak]

I'm wondering if the council would be more supportive of a new ground on the Renton Road, if it's a ground share with the Vale.  That would free Millburn up for more housing for the council and get every wdc senior team into better facilities.

[Jordo1872]

1 hour ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

The Vale’s facilities are a million miles away from meeting SPFL standards unfortunately. You could probably build a new stadium for cheaper than what it would cost to upgrade the Milburn.

Lynch, Steele, Casey and Gordon chucking within a week is massively, massively conerning. Shit is about to hit the fan and I reckon it will happen very soon. Serious question for Sons fans out there… did any of you genuinely have hope that things would improve under a band of random Norweigans and English architects who had absolutely no connection to the club whatsoever? Their first and only communication with supporters was parody esque, surely no one thought this was going to end well!? Even before that absolutely daft statement I was terrified at what lay in store for us.

 

Yes, I have no issue in admitting to being overly optimistic when Wilson & co disappeared info to sunset, because they were indeed a band of random chancers who had absolutely no connection to the club whatsoever, or more importantly, any proven record of delivering projects of that scale or indeed the capital to finance it. Make no mistake that ANY alternative was a better alternative to that particular path to nowhere.

This mob may well be a group of random Norwegian and English architects with no connection to the club but they do at least appear to have the finance and professional competence to deliver a similar project. I don’t think anyone would be against a fully funded, coherent and sustainable plan to relocate the club and on first inspections they appeared able to deliver on that. Maybe they still will, but they’ve certainly lost what little initial support they did have through their complete failure to engage with the fan base and look destined to repeat Brabco’s mistakes in that regard.

If/when we do get to crisis point, I’m confident the Trust and wider support will react accordingly.

 

[the snudge]

Has one of these holding companies borrowed money with security of the land in which the club sits? 

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/13336192/charges/DE6dOKB9jlqVUaR5VugB-00UXn8

Edited November 2, 2021 by the snudge

[The Moonster]

I am totally against relocation to the Renton Road, regardless of how well funded or coherent their proposals are. It's a flood plain in the middle of nowhere with absolutely shite access routes. It's literally the only site they had any hope of moving us to, it's not for the good of the club. 

[BallochSonsFan]

I'm not against moving. Youngs Farm is a poor choice of site. Flooding from the Leven isnt so much of a problem as waterlogging and flooding from the burns that cross the site. Even at its highest, the cycle path usually remains above the height of the Leven at that bit, but the land can't cope with any more water because of waterlogging. Net result is the same - large pools of standing water - even if the cause is a little bit different.

The logistics of the site are a real issue. Renton Road isnt suitable for matchday traffic if it was the sole means of accessing the site and changes to the Dalmoak off slip on the A82 would be eye wateringly expensive. The previous incarnation of Brabco were budgeting around £6.5million for infrastructure upgrades and even that seems a bit ambitious. There are buses that pass along Renton Road so there's a case for asking bus companies to add an additional stop to serve the stadium and the houses that were supposed to be built. Its not a terrible solution for folk who would be able to use public transport, but that still involves Renton Road. You'd need to spend serious money ensuring that there were no overhanging trees that could fall and close the road, preventing access to the stadium and there would potentially need to be upgraded pavements and lighting.

There's also the problem of taking the club out of the community. I know that the people of Dumbarton and the Vale of Leven aren't exactly in love with their local club, but it's a stretch to call Youngs Farm "Dumbarton". I'd hate to see the club stuck in some no man's land away from the town. Fan facilities would have to be top quality to make up for the fact that it would essentially be off a country road and behind a dairy farm. From an ancillary business viewpoint then would it really be attractive for folk to use the stadium for non-football events?

If it has to be Youngs Farm and our owners won't keep us where we are (and why would they? It doesnt make them any money) then I'm not sure what's changed to make the Kristofferson plan a goer but the Stainton/Wilson plan a non-starter? Has the council changed it's local development plan? Are they more open to a housing develop that's unlikely to include a substantial number of much needed affordable homes? Would it be enough for a reduced housing footprint? How would that impact on the finances available to pay for a stadium and local infrastructure upgrades?

Kristofferson has a lot of questions to answer. I didn't expect anything different from him in terms of his aims. The only reason people buy lower league football clubs is either because they're local guys done good or they think they can make money. For me Kristofferson was always going to be just another Stainton and Wilson but I'd hope that he has a different plan on how he'll achieve his profit. He's here to make money because why else would he buy Dumbarton? If nothing has changed then ultimately the outcome is going to be exactly the same - he'll be frustrated in his aim to move the club and make money on the various land deals and we'll ultimately be left with an owner needing a way out that doesnt lose him a significant sum of money. Thats where the danger to the club lies.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

40 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

The only reason people buy lower league football clubs is either because they're local guys done good or they think they can make money.

How many actual examples are there of people buying Scottish lower league football clubs, making a mint off of it and everyone being happy at the end of it? I’d have thought if you were looking to make money, a lower league Scottish football club would be the last business you’d invest in.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

50 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

I'm not against moving. Youngs Farm is a poor choice of site. Flooding from the Leven isnt so much of a problem as waterlogging and flooding from the burns that cross the site. Even at its highest, the cycle path usually remains above the height of the Leven at that bit, but the land can't cope with any more water because of waterlogging. Net result is the same - large pools of standing water - even if the cause is a little bit different.

The logistics of the site are a real issue. Renton Road isnt suitable for matchday traffic if it was the sole means of accessing the site and changes to the Dalmoak off slip on the A82 would be eye wateringly expensive. The previous incarnation of Brabco were budgeting around £6.5million for infrastructure upgrades and even that seems a bit ambitious. There are buses that pass along Renton Road so there's a case for asking bus companies to add an additional stop to serve the stadium and the houses that were supposed to be built. Its not a terrible solution for folk who would be able to use public transport, but that still involves Renton Road. You'd need to spend serious money ensuring that there were no overhanging trees that could fall and close the road, preventing access to the stadium and there would potentially need to be upgraded pavements and lighting.

There's also the problem of taking the club out of the community. I know that the people of Dumbarton and the Vale of Leven aren't exactly in love with their local club, but it's a stretch to call Youngs Farm "Dumbarton". I'd hate to see the club stuck in some no man's land away from the town. Fan facilities would have to be top quality to make up for the fact that it would essentially be off a country road and behind a dairy farm. From an ancillary business viewpoint then would it really be attractive for folk to use the stadium for non-football events?

If it has to be Youngs Farm and our owners won't keep us where we are (and why would they? It doesnt make them any money) then I'm not sure what's changed to make the Kristofferson plan a goer but the Stainton/Wilson plan a non-starter? Has the council changed it's local development plan? Are they more open to a housing develop that's unlikely to include a substantial number of much needed affordable homes? Would it be enough for a reduced housing footprint? How would that impact on the finances available to pay for a stadium and local infrastructure upgrades?

Kristofferson has a lot of questions to answer. I didn't expect anything different from him in terms of his aims. The only reason people buy lower league football clubs is either because they're local guys done good or they think they can make money. For me Kristofferson was always going to be just another Stainton and Wilson but I'd hope that he has a different plan on how he'll achieve his profit. He's here to make money because why else would he buy Dumbarton? If nothing has changed then ultimately the outcome is going to be exactly the same - he'll be frustrated in his aim to move the club and make money on the various land deals and we'll ultimately be left with an owner needing a way out that doesnt lose him a significant sum of money. Thats where the danger to the club lies.

A very cogent post.

There is a quote which is incorrectly attributed to Einstein along the lines of 'insanity is defined as repeating the same process in the hope of a different outcome'.  That has already been pointed out to the new ownership.

As regards Young's Farm, there is also the aspect of assuming that all the original elements such as available acreage, purchase price per acre and projected yield per acre remain unaltered, not to mention what exactly would be substituted for housing development should that be redlined on planning grounds.

And I very much doubt that the original Heads of Agreement between DFC and Chicas retains much validity after a decade or so.

[BallochSonsFan]

34 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

How many actual examples are there of people buying Scottish lower league football clubs, making a mint off of it and everyone being happy at the end of it? I’d have thought if you were looking to make money, a lower league Scottish football club would be the last business you’d invest in.

It doesnt stop them trying.

In the past it's typically been done to English lower league sides. Scottish sides have largely flown under the radar and a lot of that is down to the difficulty in making money in Scottish football. At least down south there's the option for rogue owners to asset strip without actually relocating a club and charging eye watering rent whilst borrowing against a stadium they usually purchase at below market value. With English clubs the wishes of fans have always been ignored and it's been to the cost of clubs like Bury, Hereford Town, Southend and even bigger clubs like Bolton, Charlton and Blackburn. Blackpool's owners came very close to ending that club.

Dumbarton were particularly appealing as there was no strong local ownership. When there's no strong local ownership and no strong commitment to the club from the wider local community then few care when an opportunist comes along with the aim of making money at the club's ultimate expense. The money, or lack of, makes asset stripping and eye watering contracts unrealistic for rogue owners beyond the prospect of selling stadiums for housing or other developments. With little support from the local council, or the local community and questionable ownership for at least the past 15 years, why wouldn't somebody looking in from the outside think that they could make money by relocating us?

Edited November 3, 2021 by BallochSonsFan

[George Parr]

The ongoing involvement of Andy Hosie in this affair is a curious thing and I noted with interest the Trust’s comment that he appears to be acting in a position of considerable influence at the club. 

Regardless of the fact the Norwegian thinks he’s ‘100 percent honourable’, I thought Hosie’s disqualification extended to even indirect management of a company or shadow directorship?

On the face of it a fine line is being trod. 
 

[Turnberry Fields Forever]

43 minutes ago, George Parr said:

The ongoing involvement of Andy Hosie in this affair is a curious thing and I noted with interest the Trust’s comment that he appears to be acting in a position of considerable influence at the club. 

Regardless of the fact the Norwegian thinks he’s ‘100 percent honourable’, I thought Hosie’s disqualification extended to even indirect management of a company or shadow directorship?

On the face of it a fine line is being trod. 
 

To be honest, it astonished me that a club whose Chairman was a former lawyer was apparently delighted to recommend this takeover, when as you correctly point out there were serious questions to be asked.  I seem to remember an article in the Lennox Herald with a sentence like 'sail through the SFA fit and proper test'.  Not so much fine line as spinning a line.