Sons' sorrow

[Howlin' Wilf]

I have just been reading some of the comments on the sonsteam list archives from 1999 and it is amazing the parallels that there are with today's situation. Justified concerns about the move, and who profits from it, whether the project will be completed, a significant number wanting to stay at Boghead.

One contributor, concerned at funding shortfalls wrote on July 30th 1999:

"Just caught up on the latest "news" which was always a concern.

Starting the stadium now, without the funding in place, seems unlikely
in the short term, however, pulling this off by building a stadium and
clearing the overdraft is the only way Neil (Rankine) will be able to sell out for the
price he wants. Noone will invest under the current circumstances and even
Billy Walker's offer seems over generous now and as you know this was so far
short of what Neil wanted that it started the arguements that led to our
departure.

The remaining doubt is what will now be built ? and I share your views on
the merits of doing it at all, what facilities will be available to the
President's Club or more importantly sponsors who will be the main stay of
any business plan for the future.

No news on Stirling, my contact is on holiday but this type of option looks
more and more likely as no matter what Andrew says Bellway can't wait for
ever."

The reference to Stirling was about a ground sharing proposal at Forthbank.

Anyway, the contributor was one Gilbert Lawrie.

[sonsanorak]

Read the notice on the club website re the hibs tickets; much better clarity and info than the announcements about rangers tickets. Well done dfc comms

[aftershocker]

Why exactly do we need to move. The current sites has lots of potential for expansion with extension of current stand or building of a stand opposite. This could incorporate office units etc to generate income. There is also enough space for a synthetic pitch (the need for car parking is a bit of a moot point. I have no idea why the fee is as low as £1 with free raffle ticket? Let's increase to £2.50 and see just how many spaces we really need)

Why will the council not allow enhanced floodlighting or are they rigging our move?

What's wrong with having a football stadium along a waterfront walk?

When will these not football folk begin to understand the importance of community clubs such as ours?

We are a football club first of course however alternative revenue streams must be maximised. However not to the extent of being a reason for moving club (especially when space for expansion exists at current location)

there is no scope whatsoever to expand the current set up...the council will not allow any additional seating capacity due to the single road leading to the site - this was the main reason why we were not allowed to erect temporary stands for this seasons esteemed visitors

Edited November 9, 2014 by aftershocker

[Jordo1872]

I didn't get a chance to get down to the club to view the plans, or hear what the club officials and project team members had to say, so thanks to those who have came on here since and posted their thoughts. It's made some interesting reading, most notably Wilf's post on similar fears prior to our move from Boghead. Of course back then we had a crumbling ground incurring ongoing maintenance costs and a debt to service. Back then it was necessary to move for the long term viability of the club; not so much now.

The plans themselves look good in principle. The proposition of terracing, supporters bar, corporate facilities etc certainly look good on paper and few could argue with the logic that modern day football requires additional income stream away from a 2-3hr match day window. Certainly in this sense the proposals are attractive to me. What is not attractive is the location, or the lack of detail on financing the project. The former is a big concern for me. Even skipping over the restricted access to and from the site there should be caution over constructing on a flood plain. Although the challenges can be overcome there exists significant risk to any project when dealing with difficult and/or unknown ground conditions. In the event we encounter difficulties during the construction phase the club must be protected from esculating costs. How this would be managed would be largely down to the procurement method, which I suspect is unknown at this stage. For this reason alone I would be looking for any new stadium to be constructed before we are required to leave the Rock.

People are right to ask about financing arrangements and expect a detailed response however I'm not sure how realistic that is. Firstly the value of the land we currently occupy will be dependant on the quantity of houses any developer can squeeze onto the site. The club/Brabco should have an idea but the final sum may well be depndant on a fluctuating housing market. The cost of constructing the new stadium can only be accurately determined on completion of the tendering process. Anything sooner would be nothing better than an educated guess. So I suspect this is why the club officials didn't have answers to these questions. Whether that's good enough is a matter of personal opinion.

I share everyones fears over the phased nature of the proposal. As much as I can understand the commercial logic I'm not sure it would be right for the club. We could very well end up with a partially completed project that leaves us with a lower capacity than we have at present, while we occupy a white elephant on the edge of town far away from our traditional core supporter base. Maybe the worst case scenario but a scenario that needs to be addressed if I'm to support these plans. Right now I don't think i can.

[Frank Quitely]

I didn't get a chance to get down to the club to view the plans, or hear what the club officials and project team members had to say, so thanks to those who have came on here since and posted their thoughts. It's made some interesting reading, most notably Wilf's post on similar fears prior to our move from Boghead. Of course back then we had a crumbling ground incurring ongoing maintenance costs and a debt to service. Back then it was necessary to move for the long term viability of the club; not so much now.

The plans themselves look good in principle. The proposition of terracing, supporters bar, corporate facilities etc certainly look good on paper and few could argue with the logic that modern day football requires additional income stream away from a 2-3hr match day window. Certainly in this sense the proposals are attractive to me. What is not attractive is the location, or the lack of detail on financing the project. The former is a big concern for me. Even skipping over the restricted access to and from the site there should be caution over constructing on a flood plain. Although the challenges can be overcome there exists significant risk to any project when dealing with difficult and/or unknown ground conditions. In the event we encounter difficulties during the construction phase the club must be protected from esculating costs. How this would be managed would be largely down to the procurement method, which I suspect is unknown at this stage. For this reason alone I would be looking for any new stadium to be constructed before we are required to leave the Rock.

People are right to ask about financing arrangements and expect a detailed response however I'm not sure how realistic that is. Firstly the value of the land we currently occupy will be dependant on the quantity of houses any developer can squeeze onto the site. The club/Brabco should have an idea but the final sum may well be depndant on a fluctuating housing market. The cost of constructing the new stadium can only be accurately determined on completion of the tendering process. Anything sooner would be nothing better than an educated guess. So I suspect this is why the club officials didn't have answers to these questions. Whether that's good enough is a matter of personal opinion.

I share everyones fears over the phased nature of the proposal. As much as I can understand the commercial logic I'm not sure it would be right for the club. We could very well end up with a partially completed project that leaves us with a lower capacity than we have at present, while we occupy a white elephant on the edge of town far away from our traditional core supporter base. Maybe the worst case scenario but a scenario that needs to be addressed if I'm to support these plans. Right now I don't think i can.

Good post Jordo, and I think you echo the sentiments of many Sons fans. What has been presented is a Ferrari, but what may be delivered at the outset, and quite possibly thereafter, is a family saloon car.

As regards the financial and commercial robustness of the whole exercise, surely both a detailed Business Plan and a Project Risk Assessment have been completed, or are fingers being put in the air ? I'm still convinced that unlocking the capital held by the present site is the primary motivation in all of this, and there remains no compelling reason for the football club to embark on what may be a very risky course indeed.

[Howlin' Wilf]

I didn't get a chance to get down to the club to view the plans, or hear what the club officials and project team members had to say, so thanks to those who have came on here since and posted their thoughts. It's made some interesting reading, most notably Wilf's post on similar fears prior to our move from Boghead. Of course back then we had a crumbling ground incurring ongoing maintenance costs and a debt to service. Back then it was necessary to move for the long term viability of the club; not so much now.

The plans themselves look good in principle. The proposition of terracing, supporters bar, corporate facilities etc certainly look good on paper and few could argue with the logic that modern day football requires additional income stream away from a 2-3hr match day window. Certainly in this sense the proposals are attractive to me. What is not attractive is the location, or the lack of detail on financing the project. The former is a big concern for me. Even skipping over the restricted access to and from the site there should be caution over constructing on a flood plain. Although the challenges can be overcome there exists significant risk to any project when dealing with difficult and/or unknown ground conditions. In the event we encounter difficulties during the construction phase the club must be protected from esculating costs. How this would be managed would be largely down to the procurement method, which I suspect is unknown at this stage. For this reason alone I would be looking for any new stadium to be constructed before we are required to leave the Rock.

People are right to ask about financing arrangements and expect a detailed response however I'm not sure how realistic that is. Firstly the value of the land we currently occupy will be dependant on the quantity of houses any developer can squeeze onto the site. The club/Brabco should have an idea but the final sum may well be depndant on a fluctuating housing market. The cost of constructing the new stadium can only be accurately determined on completion of the tendering process. Anything sooner would be nothing better than an educated guess. So I suspect this is why the club officials didn't have answers to these questions. Whether that's good enough is a matter of personal opinion.

I share everyones fears over the phased nature of the proposal. As much as I can understand the commercial logic I'm not sure it would be right for the club. We could very well end up with a partially completed project that leaves us with a lower capacity than we have at present, while we occupy a white elephant on the edge of town far away from our traditional core supporter base. Maybe the worst case scenario but a scenario that needs to be addressed if I'm to support these plans. Right now I don't think i can.

Jordo, it's a pity that you didn't make it down. I'd make the following observations on your post.

You're right of course that the circumstances are different from when we moved from Boghead. I am struck, having read the sonsteam board messages from that time though how similar many of the concerns are. What is also evident from the comparison is how far the club has come in that period of time.

I agree on your opinion on the location, it isn't attractive. However nothing will be built on a flood plain as SEPA (Scottish Environmental Protection Agency) would not allow it. Two of the three training pitches will be built on areas that Sepa say are liable to flooding once in 200 years. I was assured by Gilbert Lawrie that phase 1 would be completed before we left the Rock. I refer you to the third of my images posted on page 224.

On the question of how many properties can be squeezed in, the answer is 180 houses, a selection of town houses, detached houses, semi detached and flats (See my photo number 5)

I share your concerns of the phased nature and the apparent lack of financial information. The finances are apparently to be unveiled if (when) planning permission is granted.

I'm only quoting what was told to me. It's obviously up to each individual how they regard that information.

This is a bit like the Scottish Referendum in a way. We are being asked to take a punt on something where it is impossible for a number of factors to predict the future. The other thing which is similar to the referendum is that the status quo is not an option. We have a majority shareholder who wants this project to go ahead and to realise a profit on their investment. If it doesn't go ahead, how Brabco then behave then will be the key factor. Will they sell on? and to whom?

One similarity with the Boghead days is that the land the club occupies is more valuable as a cleared site than it is as the home of a football club. I'd suggest that someone at some time is going to realise that heritable asset and maybe it is as well to do that when an alternative location is part of the plan.

To stay at the Rock I think would require a community/supporter buy out. These are only generally successful as a distress purchase (eg when the club is in admin) for two reasons 1) Fans are motivated when the chips are down and 2) Clubs become available cheaply. I don't see either being the case here.

Our 600 season ticket holders would need to chip in around £2k each to buy the club and that would be just for the shares. No working capital or anything.

[The Moonster]

See once Brabco have made their profit on this, what do they plan on doing with the club?

[Howlin' Wilf]

See once Brabco have made their profit on this, what do they plan on doing with the club?

Good question and one that has to be asked.

[the auld son]

I can see a blockbuster movie coming up

Hugh Grant stars in "52 weddings and a funeral of DFC"

Co-starring ---Larry,,, Curly,,, and Mo !!!!!

[Howlin' Wilf]

I can see a blockbuster movie coming up

Hugh Grant stars in "52 weddings and a funeral of DFC"

Co-starring ---Larry,,, Curly,,, and Mo !!!!!

What do you think we should do Auld Son?

[the auld son]

Try as hard as possible ,through every option to stay where we are Wilf ,the fans have been played like a fiddle here.

I feel for Gilbert ,I know he is a Sons fan through and through.

He has been left holding the baby when the still unknown men of Brabco hide in the background.

They creep around with an less than honest council making plans to close every door.

I need to see a business plan and planning application BEFORE it goes to the council ,so the Trust can work with the club to get the best possible deal.

My biggest fear is we end up like Clyde, Hamilton and Clydebank.nomads wondering aimlessly for years.

Too many unknowns Wilf

A lot of questions need to be answered, not least how the funding will work ,and who at the end up will own the club.

Also will it be a case of Brabco give DFC Money and the council build the stadium and rent it back.

Who's paying for the initial price of the land

As I said too many questions ,not enough answers

[The Moonster]

Anyone know what Brabco bought the club for? Anyone know how much they've put into the club over the last 6 years? Might give us a better idea of what sort of return these guys are looking for.

[The Moonster]

Our 600 season ticket holders would need to chip in around £2k each to buy the club and that would be just for the shares. No working capital or anything.

Sorry just seen this part, is that just rough fag packet work or did they buy the club for £1.2M?

[Howlin' Wilf]

Sorry just seen this part, is that just rough fag packet work or did they buy the club for £1.2M?

Fag packet. I've heard figures mentioned around 800k.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

And they still owe a fair chunk to Rankine? How does that come into it in terms of this whole stadium situation?

Surely if were funding big shiny stadiums he'll be looking for his mula.

[The Moonster]

I think everyone should get over to the Sonstrust website and let their comments be known on there. If we don't put as many comments on there (or to the club directly) then they'll take the silence as acceptance. If you haven't already, please head over and give your thoughts, it gives Simon and Alan much more leverage when they go to put these questions to the board.

www.sonstrust.net

[Lyle Lanley]

Hey lads x

Purchased my tickets for our game next Saturday and i'm in Row M. Is that the last row?

[Jan Vojáček]

Hey lads x

Purchased my tickets for our game next Saturday and i'm in Row M. Is that the last row?

Think its the second last one. Got a picture that has the sign on it but can't upload it from my phone

Looking forward to the latest Ian Murray covered match thread already!

Edit: Photographic evidence.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Sonsteam of 08

[The Moonster]

Hey lads x

Purchased my tickets for our game next Saturday and i'm in Row M. Is that the last row?

I don't think so, it's near the back though.

[BallochSonsFan]

Hey lads x

Purchased my tickets for our game next Saturday and i'm in Row M. Is that the last row?

2nd back row.

My season ticket is in M