Sons' sorrow

[O'Kelly Isley III]

32 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Because that's what they want. A streamlined Board makes it much easier to take decisions. I don't think they've held a formal Board meeting since about then either. Major decisions can be made either with a phone call or two, or indeed in the car on the way to a game. We used to have a 5 or 6 man Board who weren't all necessarily local and it made it more difficult to get a decision on anything. Three of them left in the wake of a financial struggle in 2011/12 and were never replaced.

I'm really not sure why you'd need a bigger Board to actually get things done unless you're saying people will point blank refuse to do them without being made directors. We've several senior volunteers or staff members who help the club run, they don't need to be directors to do so.

Thanks again for an interesting reply, and as this has been the set-up for a number of years it obviously works for Queens, with evidence of local autonomy 

However, without going into specifics here, it appears a different modus operandi to that currently at Dumbarton.

[WC Boggs]

Jan and I seem to have posted a thread at exactly the same time. I've given way to the better title in my view. No harm no foul.

[Sweet Pete]

3 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

I stand informed, and thanks for that.  Can I ask why that is - is there a particular reason ?

Kilmarnock have a 3 person board.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

5 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

Kilmarnock have a 3 person board.

Whit is this, Spartacus ??

[Sweet Pete]

Just now, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Whit is this, Spartacus ??

No' mine and the Queens lad's fault that you speak in ignorance

[microdave]

Annan, Forfar and Montrose also have just three people on their boards. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* I may have made this up

[Snoddyisabino]

5 hours ago, FifeSons said:

If I were Faz, I'd be showing that to the players and hyping it up as Stirling thinking they've won it.

I hope he’s still talking about how we almost got beat on Saturday. He seemed quite obsessed in his post-match 

[BallochSonsFan]

I think that we've got a few things at work currently.

We're coming off several seasons of struggling on the pitch. We actually looked ok in the 2nd tier for a couple of our seasons there. We were a difficult team to play, usually avoided the threat of a relegation play-off and could give much bigger teams the occasional bloody nose. I wouldn't call it a feel good, but at least we lacked the negativity that feels as if it has set in. The club had 3 individuals in Alan Jardine, Colin Hosie and Gilbert Lawrie who were passionate about the club and who were very hands on. We had a trust rep on the club board who did a power of work, as evidenced by the scramble to replace everything he did following his resignation. It's easier to take advantage of circumstances when you have the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Rangers and Dundee United in your league. Or with the massive travelling support of the mighty Falkirk filling their away allocation. But we struggled in our relegation season under Stevie Aitken, endured the misery of Total Duffball (even finishing 6th, the football was relentlessly negative) and were relegated again without so much as a whimper. Prior to this season we've had 5 years of disappointment.

So if fans are reluctant to join in with a bit of feel good factor then it's understandable. It's a shame that more than a few seem to feel that way. At times it feels like people want to wallow in misery because it's easier and more reliable than risking becoming caught up in the hope of promotion. There's less chance of being disappointed if your expectations are low. That grey cloud of doom sets in and there feels like a lack of buzz about the club. The efforts of the 150th committee have been admirable. The hard work that has gone into the events of the past 6-7 months was incredible and I'd like to take the chance to say that the committee members have done a remarkable job. That the town still seems at best indifferent to their local team must be a source of immense frustration. I'm not sure how you change that depressed mindset once it sets in? A team that was top of the table for so long should have been attracting at least a bit of interest from locals. How do you convince people in the local area to give the club a chance if fans who actually go to games are so relentlessly negative about us?

But there are certainly areas where we should be concerned. The days of the passionate, hands on board appear to be a distant memory. I have serious concerns that the chairman is significantly out of this depth. I'm sure that he brings a lot of very admirable qualities and has some interesting ideas about the club's place within the community. At one point I was even involved in a minor capacity with plans that would have seen us offer free football to those most at risk of social isolation. That would certainly have been a fantastic gesture that would have helped a good number of vulnerable people and its a sign of where our chairman is particularly passionate.  Is he best placed to deal with the financial challenges that the club faces? We've dropped 2 divisions in 5 years. We've had the disruption of the Covid seasons. We've seen income fall and some poor financial decisions, including the £35,000 that a club sponsor linked to our owner simply failed to pay us. £35,000 is a painful loss from the budget of a lower league club. We'd perhaps be a bit more confident in the leadership provided by our chairman if he'd made the effort to engage with fans. Unfortunately he appears to do almost the exact opposite and many supporters simply don't know him or what he brings to the club board. I believe that the local board could be doing better than they are right now, but it would be grossly unfair to fail to acknowledge the significant problems under which they are operating.

The owner(s).

I had my dealings with Brabco. On the whole I found Chris Stainton to be as honest as he could be in that he made no efforts to convince anybody that it was about anything other than money. He was a bit of a b*****d, but one who was clear and consistent. A b*****d you could at least work with on a basic level. Ian Wilson was an egotist who occasionally made comments that would have seen him run out of town with pitchforks and torches had they reached the wider support. Their plans for Youngs Farm were always deeply flawed. It's little wonder that by the time they actually submitted planning permission, their plans had changed at least 4 times. We went from the move being 100% funded by the sale of the current ground to talk of community sports facilities, retail facilities, serviced office space and finally the involvement of house builders. To their small credit, they at least engaged with the trust and with the wider support. Callum Hosie gave Brabco a shred of a connection to the club. I can't say the same for the now departed Henning Kirstofferson, who always seemed to be a bit of a fantasist. And that, alarmingly, leaves us in the hands of the fundamentally dodgy Andy Hosie. How much push back is there from our club board to Hosie? What kind of fight are the club putting up? A check of Companies House will show some troubling developments with both More Homes DFC and Cognitive Capital and I wonder whether or not the current board are capable of representing our interests in a sufficiently robust fashion? Do they have the skills, the knowledge and the street fighting attitude to go toe to toe with a serial chancer?

I think the conclusion that I have to draw is that we're far from everything in the garden being rosy, but that equally we're not at the stage of everything being bleak. Recent results and performances are a cause for concern but that shouldn't negate the reasons for being cheerful when we were top of the table and extending our winning streak week on week. We turned 150 years old on December 23rd and that's a massive achievement for a team in a town that has always been in the shadow of it's big city neighbour. We still have a good chance of at least a promotion bid, or potentially still a crack at a league title. We can't ignore the threat that our owners pose to us or the worrying lack of leadership from our club board, but these are reasons to be concerned and to be vigilant. They can't become all consuming and add to the feeling of inevitable doom that a number of fans seem to be feeling right now.

 

[FifeSons]

Bloody hell. Put a pot of coffee on!

[O'Kelly Isley III]

1 hour ago, BallochSonsFan said:

I think that we've got a few things at work currently.

We're coming off several seasons of struggling on the pitch. We actually looked ok in the 2nd tier for a couple of our seasons there. We were a difficult team to play, usually avoided the threat of a relegation play-off and could give much bigger teams the occasional bloody nose. I wouldn't call it a feel good, but at least we lacked the negativity that feels as if it has set in. The club had 3 individuals in Alan Jardine, Colin Hosie and Gilbert Lawrie who were passionate about the club and who were very hands on. We had a trust rep on the club board who did a power of work, as evidenced by the scramble to replace everything he did following his resignation. It's easier to take advantage of circumstances when you have the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Rangers and Dundee United in your league. Or with the massive travelling support of the mighty Falkirk filling their away allocation. But we struggled in our relegation season under Stevie Aitken, endured the misery of Total Duffball (even finishing 6th, the football was relentlessly negative) and were relegated again without so much as a whimper. Prior to this season we've had 5 years of disappointment.

So if fans are reluctant to join in with a bit of feel good factor then it's understandable. It's a shame that more than a few seem to feel that way. At times it feels like people want to wallow in misery because it's easier and more reliable than risking becoming caught up in the hope of promotion. There's less chance of being disappointed if your expectations are low. That grey cloud of doom sets in and there feels like a lack of buzz about the club. The efforts of the 150th committee have been admirable. The hard work that has gone into the events of the past 6-7 months was incredible and I'd like to take the chance to say that the committee members have done a remarkable job. That the town still seems at best indifferent to their local team must be a source of immense frustration. I'm not sure how you change that depressed mindset once it sets in? A team that was top of the table for so long should have been attracting at least a bit of interest from locals. How do you convince people in the local area to give the club a chance if fans who actually go to games are so relentlessly negative about us?

But there are certainly areas where we should be concerned. The days of the passionate, hands on board appear to be a distant memory. I have serious concerns that the chairman is significantly out of this depth. I'm sure that he brings a lot of very admirable qualities and has some interesting ideas about the club's place within the community. At one point I was even involved in a minor capacity with plans that would have seen us offer free football to those most at risk of social isolation. That would certainly have been a fantastic gesture that would have helped a good number of vulnerable people and its a sign of where our chairman is particularly passionate.  Is he best placed to deal with the financial challenges that the club faces? We've dropped 2 divisions in 5 years. We've had the disruption of the Covid seasons. We've seen income fall and some poor financial decisions, including the £35,000 that a club sponsor linked to our owner simply failed to pay us. £35,000 is a painful loss from the budget of a lower league club. We'd perhaps be a bit more confident in the leadership provided by our chairman if he'd made the effort to engage with fans. Unfortunately he appears to do almost the exact opposite and many supporters simply don't know him or what he brings to the club board. I believe that the local board could be doing better than they are right now, but it would be grossly unfair to fail to acknowledge the significant problems under which they are operating.

The owner(s).

I had my dealings with Brabco. On the whole I found Chris Stainton to be as honest as he could be in that he made no efforts to convince anybody that it was about anything other than money. He was a bit of a b*****d, but one who was clear and consistent. A b*****d you could at least work with on a basic level. Ian Wilson was an egotist who occasionally made comments that would have seen him run out of town with pitchforks and torches had they reached the wider support. Their plans for Youngs Farm were always deeply flawed. It's little wonder that by the time they actually submitted planning permission, their plans had changed at least 4 times. We went from the move being 100% funded by the sale of the current ground to talk of community sports facilities, retail facilities, serviced office space and finally the involvement of house builders. To their small credit, they at least engaged with the trust and with the wider support. Callum Hosie gave Brabco a shred of a connection to the club. I can't say the same for the now departed Henning Kirstofferson, who always seemed to be a bit of a fantasist. And that, alarmingly, leaves us in the hands of the fundamentally dodgy Andy Hosie. How much push back is there from our club board to Hosie? What kind of fight are the club putting up? A check of Companies House will show some troubling developments with both More Homes DFC and Cognitive Capital and I wonder whether or not the current board are capable of representing our interests in a sufficiently robust fashion? Do they have the skills, the knowledge and the street fighting attitude to go toe to toe with a serial chancer?

I think the conclusion that I have to draw is that we're far from everything in the garden being rosy, but that equally we're not at the stage of everything being bleak. Recent results and performances are a cause for concern but that shouldn't negate the reasons for being cheerful when we were top of the table and extending our winning streak week on week. We turned 150 years old on December 23rd and that's a massive achievement for a team in a town that has always been in the shadow of it's big city neighbour. We still have a good chance of at least a promotion bid, or potentially still a crack at a league title. We can't ignore the threat that our owners pose to us or the worrying lack of leadership from our club board, but these are reasons to be concerned and to be vigilant. They can't become all consuming and add to the feeling of inevitable doom that a number of fans seem to be feeling right now.

 

A very good post and I would recommend people should read it.  Especially the passages about the current Board and the club ownership.

[Boghead ranter]

22 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

A very good post and I would recommend people should read it.  Especially the passages about the current Board and the club ownership.

I'll need to read it in instalments. 

[lorenzo71]

10 hours ago, Jan Vojáček said:

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But I've watched the Binos' goals from last night (and followed their Twitter during the game) and they look like a side in a promotion battle.

Busy stadium, buzzing atmosphere, fans right behind the team on Twitter and players celebrating goals like they've won the league (and I mean that in a good way, not in a 'aw youse think youse have won the league in March' way).

Compare that to us. When we were winning there was no buzz. Just a sense that the winning run will stop. Now we aren't winning there's a strong sense of misery. We had less than 500 home fans at the game on Saturday too.

I've only seen us win a league once, but the atmosphere was nothing like this. Nor was it like this in 2011/12 when we won the playoffs. If I read the posts on FB correctly too we've not even filled a supporters' bus for Forthbank. First v Second. First title fight in over a decade. And we can't get fans to go to the closest away day in the league (or one of them anyway).

If you were shown Tweets and Facebook posts and asked which team in the league they related to, you'd say Bonnyrigg.

We don't play scintillating football. We have a dire pitch. And we have a manager who splits the fanbase. That's before you delve into the mess behind the scenes. I understand all that.

But my God. We've spent near enough the last eight seasons battling relegation. I'm just glad there's absolutely no danger of that this year.

@Francesc Fabregas mentioned it to me the other week after the Stenny game at home. There is an overpowering feeling of misery around the club at the moment, and it's as bad as I can remember it. Despite the fact we're in a title hunt. I stand by what I said last night, there's a section of our support that enjoys defeats so they can moan. Because when we win games and play well, that Facebook group is almost silent.

I agree with what you say Jan and I think this feeling of dread that is hangin over the club is a hangover from last season.Fans on here can say what they want that its a new season, different league , different squad but the thing that hasnt changed is the manager and lastyear was such a debacle that that trauma doesnt go away over one summer.Its like we are expecting the inevitable decline or bubble to burst and when you are living in anxiety its hard to be enthusiastic.The Binos on the otherhand are coming from a totally different viewpoint , they are having a good season and are things are positive also because they have a good manager who has them playing decent football and not the kind of performances we usually put in.We win and it seems like a defeat at times as we suck the life out of the game to win 1 nil.

Some might say who cares as long as we win but this way of playing just adds to the gloom mentioned by others on here.

[sonsanorak]

I think the style of play puts off the casual fan who might come along to see their local team who seem to be doing well at the top of the league.  But on it's own, it wouldn't keep them coming back.  I've felt a sense of unease all season, as if it was too good to be true.

 

But it is, we went on a great run at the start of the season and deserve to be where we are in the league.

Can we defend well?  Aye, normally it's the most obvious characteristic of our team.  Can we nick a goal at the other end, yes, we have good options up front and wide.

Can we get it to click for us in the last quarter?  I dont see why not.

I've got one observation about Russell McLean and that is that despite his height he's not a target man and both wallace and byrne would struggle with the type of passes he's being sent recently.  He's a clever,  capable penalty box striker who hasnt had many chances facing goal.  If we can improve on that I think we'd see the best of him.

[WC Boggs]

I have felt for some time that we have all been witnessing a battle of two very different football philosophies between two very different managers. A battle that is far from over. Dumbarton have not turned into title no hopers in less than a week. We have not become invincible because we've finally fought our way to the top spot. 

It's all about what both teams can do from here on.  Anybody got a crystal ball?  I have no idea where this is going, just glad  how it ends is in our own hands at this point.  It's still very much in Dumbarton's own hands too.  It takes two to make an epic contest and boy are we having one.

[SANDYSON]

 

[FifeSons]

40 minutes ago, WC Boggs said:

I have felt for some time that we have all been witnessing a battle of two very different football philosophies between two very different managers. A battle that is far from over. Dumbarton have not turned into title no hopers in less than a week. We have not become invincible because we've finally fought our way to the top spot. 

It's all about what both teams can do from here on.  Anybody got a crystal ball?  I have no idea where this is going, just glad  how it ends is in our own hands at this point.  It's still very much in Dumbarton's own hands too.  It takes two to make an epic contest and boy are we having one.

Dumbarton:

Stirling Albion (a)
Forfar Athletic (h)
Stenhousemuir (h)
Annan Athletic (a)
Stirling Albion (h)
Bonnyrigg Rose (a)
East Fife (h)
Elgin City (a)
Stranraer (h)

Stirling Albion:

Dumbarton (h)
Elgin City (a)
Elgin City (h)
East Fife (h)
Dumbarton (a)
Stenhousemuir (a)
Annan Athletic (h)
Forfar Athletic (h)
Albion Rovers (a)

Not to be like the folk on our FB page, who weirdly love to use the amazing start as a stick to beat us with, but our form hasn't been that of title contenders since those first 7 games: P20, W9, D5, L6. That's an average of 1.60 pts/game, which would cement you a play-off spot, but not a title. We will need to really up it in this last quarter.

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by FifeSons

[Frank Quitely]

12 minutes ago, FifeSons said:

Dumbarton:

Stirling Albion (a)
Forfar Athletic (h)
Stenhousemuir (h)
Annan Athletic (a)
Stirling Albion (h)
Bonnyrigg Rose (a)
East Fife (h)
Elgin City (a)
Stranraer (h)

Stirling Albion:

Dumbarton (h)
Elgin City (a)
Elgin City (h)
East Fife (h)
Dumbarton (a)
Stenhousemuir (a)
Annan Athletic (h)
Forfar Athletic (h)
Albion Rovers (a)

Not to be like the folk on our FB page, who weirdly love to use the amazing start as a stick to beat us with, but our form hasn't been that of title contenders since those first 7 games: P20, W9, D5, L6. That's an average of 1.60 pts/game, which would cement you a play-off spot, but not a title. We will need to really up it in this last quarter.

 

And that's what we've done, cemented a play-off place.  As you rightly point out there will need to be a dramatic improvement in form to win the title.  Defeat on Saturday and we can forget it, despite what the polite Binos fans are posting.

[WC Boggs]

44 minutes ago, Frank Quitely said:

And that's what we've done, cemented a play-off place.  As you rightly point out there will need to be a dramatic improvement in form to win the title.  Defeat on Saturday and we can forget it, despite what the polite Binos fans are posting.

I've been trying to guess how many points would likely assure a play off spot. That's not me being negative, just wondering how plan B is going. I'm thinking about 60 to 64. Surely we can both at least manage that?

Trust me, I wont be thinking it's over for the title if we win on Saturday. Momentum can be a very fragile thing as we all know. 

Want a laugh?  I can't even go to the game, because money is just too bloody tight till next pension day.

[Frank Quitely]

28 minutes ago, WC Boggs said:

I've been trying to guess how many points would likely assure a play off spot. That's not me being negative, just wondering how plan B is going. I'm thinking about 60 to 64. Surely we can both at least manage that?

Trust me, I wont be thinking it's over for the title if we win on Saturday. Momentum can be a very fragile thing as we all know. 

Want a laugh?  I can't even go to the game, because money is just too bloody tight till next pension day.

I would certainly hope so, yes.

But I'm very sorry to hear you can't attend on Saturday - I do though sadly understand.

[microdave]

2 hours ago, SANDYSON said:

 

I've managed to listen up to the point where Chappie took over and hopefully I'll manage the rest this evening. 

As a result of Jan outing himself as a Sun reader, I've amended Finlay Gray's date of birth on the Sons Archive.