Sons' sorrow

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

It doesnt really work like that.

In normal circumstances there would have been a trust AGM. That would have been a good opportunity for the membership to ask questions of the trust board. But in terms of a public meeting, that kind of thing has to have a purpose. It can't just be a grumbling session. The trust were previously able to arrange public meetings with the club board and with the previous owners. Those were arranged when there was a clear purpose but it took a hell of a lot of ground work to get to a point where the likes of Chris Stainton or Ian Wilson would appear before fans and answer questions. it remains to be seen whether or not the trust can get to a similar state with Henning Kristofferson or anybody else now involved in an ownership capacity at Dumbarton. It'll take a lot of work to build enough of a relationship where a meeting with Kristofferson would be even remotely likely to happen. In the mean time, what kind of meeting do you want with the trust?

Thats not a dig, but a serious question. We need a strong trust and that means that we need a really engaged membership. So the trust calls an all members meeting but can't tell it's membership a huge amount because either it's finding it difficult to work with Kristofferson or things are at a very initial stage where information can't yet be made public. If Alan, Simon and I on the trust board and Stevie Lynch had went public with even half of the things that we discussed during our meetings with Stainton and Wilson then all it would have achieved is ensuring that the owners refused any further contact with the trust or with the fans and that they'd become openly hostile towards us. They even went as far as to suggest that the 4 of us sign a legally binding non-disclosure agreement (which we refused to do). What happens then? Do members become disengaged because the trust board can't give them chapter and verse and because it's not rousing them to pick up pitchforks and light torches? The time for that may well be coming but a meeting for the sake of it doesnt really achieve much. Any trust member can speak with the trust board at a Sons home game. It could perhaps be done in a more structured way. I know that it was spoken about when I was on the trust board, but there's absolutely no reason why any trust member can't talk with trust board members at a Sons home game. Maybe that means trust board members being more visible and having a clear trust area within the community suite where members can come over and ask questions? Thats certainly one way that the trust could be more visible. But if you're looking to get trust members together for a meeting then there has to be a clear purpose. If not then what does it actually achieve?

I don’t mean with the board but given the fact, granted Covid put paid to it at beginning, there hasn’t been an AGM in some time. There should just be a general trust meeting for people to discuss/trust to raise awareness etc of anything up and coming, general concerns so on. 
 

You can’t complain about trust member dialogue/ feed back if the trust are purely relying on them getting back to you via a trust newsletter that goes out. 
Or the fact that the trust website is actually quite poor to navigate etc on most platforms. I wonder how man are even aware there is a trust website on here? 

If the supporters Trust really wanted to gain more members or hear from supporters/members then they would hold catch up meetings with supporters. I think truthfully they just won’t like what they hear in short. 
 

The only way owners etc will take note is if they can actively see that supporters and the trust are constantly in dialogue and that the trust has support etc otherwise fans pay their money and they don’t have to worry about us 
 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

Its not an excuse.

Finding young players? If you're talking about Dumbarton being able to sign youngsters at 18/19/20 who are being released from top flight club academies then money talks. Hamilton signed Matthew Shiels when he was released from Rangers. The same Matthew Shiels who was absolutely hopeless on loan for us. The best youngsters will end up at Championship sides or at the kind of League One/League Two teams that can pay them a decent wage. Cove. Queens Park. Falklirk. Kelty. We're not competing with those teams to sign the best youngsters deemed not good enough for Rangers or Celtic. We signed young Wilson when Hibs released him - he hasn't been the model of consistency. The best young players will go to full time teams or to part time teams with bigger budgets than ours because money talks. And a team of 11 Callum Wilsons might be a romantic idea but real life isnt like FM. You can''t build a team of kids released from top flight academies, pay them peanuts and expect them to do anything other than struggle.

Peterhead have a couple of decent youngsters on loan. Montrose have a budget that exceeds ours. Both teams benefit from there being little competition in their respective areas. Some West of Scotland players will be paid more by the likes of Auchinleck than we're paying some of our players. We went down that route when we signed the likes of McLuskey - that didnt work out well for us.

So the alternative would presumably be to develop our own? Who was the last Dumbarton youth player to make any kind of impact on the first team squad? Running a youth/reserve team structure was costing the club serious money for absolutely no end product. When SFA funding was cut, the club really had no choice but to disband its teams outside of the first team. The money just wasnt there to fund something that did absolutely nothing to benefit the club on the pitch.

It is though…

wilson won player of the month, we give him a deal and all of a sudden he gets dropped and faz started playing around with his team selection like he was raneri? 
 

Griping the boy for consistency when he gets 15 mins a game is laughable. 
 

You mention Montrose and that’s key? There budget is bigger than ours ? Why’s that? Because they spent money on proven lower league players instead of drop outs like us? Didn’t waste it on a manager who got them relegated? Didn’t out spend their budgets? They have came from nowhere and now they leave us in their shadow because we act like we are playing Football manager. Sit back and watch our playing surface get progressively worse? Is it the money Montrose make off their arrtificial pitch? The pitch they can train on, play on etc all year round? No need for training facilities etc ? All these things add up and we are asleep at the wheel tumbling down the leagues like a car crash. 

[FifeSons]

1 hour ago, Jordo1872 said:

Monthly option with not minimum term commitment and a guarantee that the money raised is ringfenced for the playing budget.

Incidentally that type of feedback is really valuable. The MF has been advertised on social medial and on the club website, and would have been pushed further had Covid not restricted match day attendances, but clearly we need to make it more easily accessible. So to show the Trust board do listen (it’s a Trust initiative rather than a club one) I’ve spoken to the club’s website this evening and we’ll get a link added to the navigation pane on the home page shortly, which should help going forward.

I assume streaming won’t be allowed to continue next season, either - which means I can also put what I’d have spent on the away games into the club instead.

Edited January 9, 2022 by FifeSons

[BallochSonsFan]

17 minutes ago, DobbiesAgent said:

I don’t mean with the board but given the fact, granted Covid put paid to it at beginning, there hasn’t been an AGM in some time. There should just be a general trust meeting for people to discuss/trust to raise awareness etc of anything up and coming, general concerns so on. 
 

You can’t complain about trust member dialogue/ feed back if the trust are purely relying on them getting back to you via a trust newsletter that goes out. 
Or the fact that the trust website is actually quite poor to navigate etc on most platforms. I wonder how man are even aware there is a trust website on here? 

If the supporters Trust really wanted to gain more members or hear from supporters/members then they would hold catch up meetings with supporters. I think truthfully they just won’t like what they hear in short. 
 

The only way owners etc will take note is if they can actively see that supporters and the trust are constantly in dialogue and that the trust has support etc otherwise fans pay their money and they don’t have to worry about us 
 

Again,, what do you actually want the meeting to be about?

General meetings achieve nothing. A nice wee catch up where you ask questions that the trust board might not be able to answer. So you leave that meeting having learned nothing because the trust either aren't able to go public with everything it's privy to or simply has nothing to tell you because the current owners aren't willing dance partners. The trust is asking but they're not dancing.

What then? Do you leave the meeting feeling fully engaged, even though the trust hasnt been able to answer any of your questions? When you'd learn as much reading the trust member communications that are sent out? Why wait for a meeting? Why not approach a trust board member at the next home game where fans are in attendance?

Its the easiest thing in the world to moan and blame. If only the trust board were more accessible. If only they'd hold more meetings where they'd listen to fans. If only there was a way to vent all the frustrations. What would it achieve? What do you specifically want to ask the trust board? What do you want to talk about? Or how about a way for trust members to get more involved? To be more hands on? I spent 2 years asking for people to help out with 50/50 ticket sales. How many people were willing to give up a bit of their time to get involved? None. Nobody. It was John Bush who had done it for years and it was me when I took over from Brian and David when they'd had enough. 

There are plenty of opportunities to either engage with the trust or to actually get involved. People love to have a generic, unfocused moan. When it comes to specifics or actually becoming active? Eerie silence. The trust is only as strong as it's membership, so what do you as a member specifically want from the trust and how are you going to help the trust achieve it?

Edited January 9, 2022 by BallochSonsFan

[BallochSonsFan]

5 minutes ago, DobbiesAgent said:

It is though…

wilson won player of the month, we give him a deal and all of a sudden he gets dropped and faz started playing around with his team selection like he was raneri? 
 

Griping the boy for consistency when he gets 15 mins a game is laughable. 
 

You mention Montrose and that’s key? There budget is bigger than ours ? Why’s that? Because they spent money on proven lower league players instead of drop outs like us? Didn’t waste it on a manager who got them relegated? Didn’t out spend their budgets? They have came from nowhere and now they leave us in their shadow because we act like we are playing Football manager. Sit back and watch our playing surface get progressively worse? Is it the money Montrose make off their arrtificial pitch? The pitch they can train on, play on etc all year round? No need for training facilities etc ? All these things add up and we are asleep at the wheel tumbling down the leagues like a car crash. 

Presumably you were watching Wilson's performance level fall off a cliff after he won player of the month?

In the seasons where all 4 Angus clubs were in the same division, the likes of Montrose brought in some very healthy income through sponsorship,, hospitality and attendances. Our finances would shock people on here. At one point we were days away from Les Hope petitioning the high court for a winding up order because we couldn't repay a directors loan he had made. We had to fund raise to fix a hole in the roof that was letting water into the dressing rooms.

Sons fans have consistently refused to believe exactly how skint we are.

[FifeSons]

50 minutes ago, OKsons2020 said:

Who's the Stevie managing Alloa?!

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

Presumably you were watching Wilson's performance level fall off a cliff after he won player of the month?

In the seasons where all 4 Angus clubs were in the same division, the likes of Montrose brought in some very healthy income through sponsorship,, hospitality and attendances. Our finances would shock people on here. At one point we were days away from Les Hope petitioning the high court for a winding up order because we couldn't repay a directors loan he had made. We had to fund raise to fix a hole in the roof that was letting water into the dressing rooms.

Sons fans have consistently refused to believe exactly how skint we are.

Well there’s the big question then ? How are we so worse off compared to all these other clubs that have leap frogged us since? Where does the money go thats  made us that skint? 
 

Answer that and we will unravel the mystery. 
 

33 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

Again,, what do you actually want the meeting to be about?

General meetings achieve nothing. A nice wee catch up where you ask questions that the trust board might not be able to answer. So you leave that meeting having learned nothing because the trust either aren't able to go public with everything it's privy to or simply has nothing to tell you because the current owners aren't willing dance partners. The trust is asking but they're not dancing.

What then? Do you leave the meeting feeling fully engaged, even though the trust hasnt been able to answer any of your questions? When you'd learn as much reading the trust member communications that are sent out? Why wait for a meeting? Why not approach a trust board member at the next home game where fans are in attendance?

Its the easiest thing in the world to moan and blame. If only the trust board were more accessible. If only they'd hold more meetings where they'd listen to fans. If only there was a way to vent all the frustrations. What would it achieve? What do you specifically want to ask the trust board? What do you want to talk about? Or how about a way for trust members to get more involved? To be more hands on? I spent 2 years asking for people to help out with 50/50 ticket sales. How many people were willing to give up a bit of their time to get involved? None. Nobody. It was John Bush who had done it for years and it was me when I took over from Brian and David when they'd had enough. 

There are plenty of opportunities to either engage with the trust or to actually get involved. People love to have a generic, unfocused moan. When it comes to specifics or actually becoming active? Eerie silence. The trust is only as strong as it's membership, so what do you as a member specifically want from the trust and how are you going to help the trust achieve it?

As for the trust, yeah instead of forcing every member to grab the attention of the trust maybe it would be nice of the trust to reach out and say let’s come together and hear and see if we can answer your concerns. As opposed to expecting them to come to you whilst they take the membership fee 

 

as for the 50/50 I don’t know what it’s like now but I used to sell the 50/50 and the programmes after I finished a ball boy and you got paid a tenner for doing it. Was ideal for me. We earner and yet again a bit of engagement with younger supporters. It was decent. 
 

You ask what you would people stand up and offer to help with maybe if the trust came forward with any sort of information about help they need, apart from the recent social media team post, then fans might be able to help?

 

What’s the point in a fan representative if they are just made to keep secrets from its members? Donate money so a select few are in the know? Are these people that are selected qualified in any way to be a board member of a football club? Or are they just drawn out a hat of who’s pals with who? 

[OKsons2020]

2 hours ago, OKsons2020 said:

He mite be better off there .....no we just pumped alloa on football manager. But that's a small chap who adores a club in turmoil 

[Karpaty Lviv]

3 hours ago, Karpaty Lviv said:

What’s the script with Syvertsen?

Anyone?

[FifeSons]

36 minutes ago, Karpaty Lviv said:

Anyone?

Constantly injured. Not sure he actually exists.

[Karpaty Lviv]

1 hour ago, FifeSons said:

Constantly injured. Not sure he actually exists.

Sounds familiar. Shame, he’s a really good player. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

8 hours ago, DobbiesAgent said:

Well there’s the big question then ? How are we so worse off compared to all these other clubs that have leap frogged us since? Where does the money go thats  made us that skint? 
 

Answer that and we will unravel the mystery. 
 

As for the trust, yeah instead of forcing every member to grab the attention of the trust maybe it would be nice of the trust to reach out and say let’s come together and hear and see if we can answer your concerns. As opposed to expecting them to come to you whilst they take the membership fee 

 

as for the 50/50 I don’t know what it’s like now but I used to sell the 50/50 and the programmes after I finished a ball boy and you got paid a tenner for doing it. Was ideal for me. We earner and yet again a bit of engagement with younger supporters. It was decent. 
 

You ask what you would people stand up and offer to help with maybe if the trust came forward with any sort of information about help they need, apart from the recent social media team post, then fans might be able to help?

 

What’s the point in a fan representative if they are just made to keep secrets from its members? Donate money so a select few are in the know? Are these people that are selected qualified in any way to be a board member of a football club? Or are they just drawn out a hat of who’s pals with who? 

That last paragraph has crossed a line for me - people have tried to patiently explain the situation to you, and never mind failing to pause and consider their responses you are now shooting the messenger.

And you are so, so wrong in your assertions.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

That last paragraph has crossed a line for me - people have tried to patiently explain the situation to you, and never mind failing to pause and consider their responses you are now shooting the messenger.

And you are so, so wrong in your assertions.

I wouldn’t go as to say it’s crossed a line, 

 

but the general vibe there is we don’t have general meetings cause we don’t want to listen to peoples concerns? 
 

also, by no way am I shooting the messenger…but as I said and as ballochsonsafan said, maybe that needs to be having a direct trust table set up in The community suite? 
 

Im not the only ones who’s had the opinion the trust are a lot quieter than they used to be? I’ve heard too many people around me at games as well saying Im not paying that anymore etc 

 

I know there’s the newsletter etc but that’s fine for that younger generation. Have to consider that we have a huge number of supporters who you aren’t so easily connected via email, Facebook whatever else. 

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

3 minutes ago, DobbiesAgent said:

I I know there’s the newsletter etc but that’s fine for that younger generation. Have to consider that we have a huge number of supporters who you aren’t so easily connected via email, Facebook whatever else. 

I’m by no means sticking the boot in here btw but I actually think utilising social media more would improve engagement. I’d consider myself in the younger generation bracket but I find newsletters and emails a bit outdated, social media is the way forward. If you want a response to communications then put it on social media.

I certainly wouldn’t have the time (or drive) to manage a social media account so i’m not here preaching, it’s simply a suggestion. The last Twitter update from the Trust was May 21 for example.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

I’m by no means sticking the boot in here btw but I actually think utilising social media more would improve engagement. I’d consider myself in the younger generation bracket but I find newsletters and emails a bit outdated, social media is the way forward. If you want a response to communications then put it on social media.

I certainly wouldn’t have the time (or drive) to manage a social media account so i’m not here preaching, it’s simply a suggestion. The last Twitter update from the Trust was May 21 for example.

And for those of the older guard who do manage to navigate their way online never mind social media, who can blame them if they give up trying when greeted with the trust website which isn’t that user friendly for anyone never mind someone in their late 60s/70s etc 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Guest

[Boghead ranter]

10 hours ago, BallochSonsFan said:

can't tell it's membership a huge amount because either it's finding it difficult to work with Kristofferson or things are at a very initial stage where information can't yet be made public. If Alan, Simon and I on the trust board and Stevie Lynch had went public with even half of the things that we discussed during our meetings with Stainton and Wilson then all it would have achieved is ensuring that the owners refused any further contact with the trust or with the fans and that they'd become openly hostile towards us. They even went as far as to suggest that the 4 of us sign a legally binding non-disclosure agreement (which we refused to do). 

Equally, what's the point in having these meetings if the 4 of you aren't allowed to do anything with the information you're told?

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

14 minutes ago, DobbiesAgent said:

And for those of the older guard who do manage to navigate their way online never mind social media, who can blame them if they give up trying when greeted with the trust website which isn’t that user friendly for anyone never mind someone in their late 60s/70s etc 

They’ll be deid soon mate, no worth the hassle.

[vikingTON]

11 hours ago, Jordo1872 said:

Monthly option with not minimum term commitment and a guarantee that the money raised is ringfenced for the playing budget.

Incidentally that type of feedback is really valuable. The MF has been advertised on social medial and on the club website, and would have been pushed further had Covid not restricted match day attendances, but clearly we need to make it more easily accessible. So to show the Trust board do listen (it’s a Trust initiative rather than a club one) I’ve spoken to the club’s website this evening and we’ll get a link added to the navigation pane on the home page shortly, which should help going forward.

From the outside perspective, you'd have to be off your head to chip in money to a manager's fund at Dumbarton, when there's little evidence that the owners are investing in the club themselves.

Giving hauners to a football club to make the first team less dung is a terrible idea. Fans already pay their season ticket/gate money and buy cheap tat merchandise to do that.

Exchanging fan contributions for a first team fund for leverage i.e. shares with a view to (at least partial) fan/community ownership of your club is the only reasonable play. If Dumbarton's current owners are not willing to acquiesce in that then that raises all the red flags about their intentions that you need.  

[FifeSons]

4 minutes ago, virginton said:

From the outside perspective, you'd have to be off your head to chip in money to a manager's fund at Dumbarton, when there's little evidence that the owners are investing in the club themselves..  

That’s exactly why it’s necessary for fans to chip in in the first place, sadly.

 

5 minutes ago, virginton said:

If Dumbarton's current owners are not willing to acquiesce in that then that raises all the red flags about their intentions that you need.  

It’s already pretty clear that, like the previous owners, they have absolutely no interest in seeing the club do well on the pitch. In fact, the exact opposite and slow decline we’re in plays perfectly into their hands.

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, FifeSons said:

That’s exactly why it’s necessary for fans to chip in in the first place, sadly.

 

It’s already pretty clear that, like the previous owners, they have absolutely no interest in seeing the club do well on the pitch. In fact, the exact opposite and slow decline we’re in plays perfectly into their hands.

I'd say that nothing plays into their hands more than fans subsidising the first team on their behalf, while receiving nothing for that capital investment (which is what it is) in the club than occasional, mealy-mouthed gratitude - if you even manage that. 

That dynamic is not in the best interests of any fanbase and is not even sustainable for the club once a consensus emerges that the manager is a haddy and would only squander the money anyway - which you can set your watch by in the Scottish lower leagues. 

Football fans are being guilt-tripped into propping up crap ownership and business models up and down the country and until fan organisations treat their clubs like business partners rather than charities, it will only get worse for them over time.