Sons' sorrow

[Nowhereman]

1 hour ago, Turnberry Fields Forever said:

Thanks.  Did he look like a leader of men ?

No

[Nowhereman]

Thanks.  Did he look like a leader of men ?

To be honest I had no idea who he was. He came up, said something I didn’t catch and then shook hands with me. It was only as he left the room that I twigged he had an accent and we then realised he was our esteemed owner. Hardly made an impression

[Johnny Red]

To be honest I had no idea who he was. He came up, said something I didn’t catch and then shook hands with me. It was only as he left the room that I twigged he had an accent and we then realised he was our esteemed owner. Hardly made an impression

A dangerous wee f****r

[O'Kelly Isley III]

21 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

To be honest I had no idea who he was. He came up, said something I didn’t catch and then shook hands with me. It was only as he left the room that I twigged he had an accent and we then realised he was our esteemed owner. Hardly made an impression

'Big Issue' perhaps ?

[The Moonster]

Was he just walking around the bar shaking peoples hands? And naecunt lamped him?

[cameron2000]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/2824533/arbroath-smash-the-1000-barrier-for-season-ticket-sales-after-incredible-championship-run/

Hard not to be jealous of this - and by that I’m more meaning the attendances than results. Wouldn’t it be great to have an expanding home support rather than a dwindling one!

[The Moonster]

That's what you get with a board and local community who buy into what a local club should be. A really tremendous effort by those in Arbroath to capitalise on their promotion to the Championship. Meanwhile, we struggle to get 200 bodies in the home end, and have an ownership determined to see that number dwindle further by moving us out of town. Not helped by a football team who can't win at home, nor keep a clean sheet. It's hard to be enthusiastic about the club.

[Frank Quitely]

4 hours ago, The Moonster said:

That's what you get with a board and local community who buy into what a local club should be. A really tremendous effort by those in Arbroath to capitalise on their promotion to the Championship. Meanwhile, we struggle to get 200 bodies in the home end, and have an ownership determined to see that number dwindle further by moving us out of town allowing the club to run down then closing it .  Not helped by a football team who can't win at home, nor keep a clean sheet. It's hard to be enthusiastic about the club.

FTFY

[The Moonster]

Just now, Frank Quitely said:

FTFY

How exactly would closing us down play out? Genuine question, as I don't really understand these things. I wouldn't think administrators seizing control of the club is what Henning wants but perhaps I don't understand enough.

[Frank Quitely]

2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

How exactly would closing us down play out? Genuine question, as I don't really understand these things. I wouldn't think administrators seizing control of the club is what Henning wants but perhaps I don't understand enough.

I'll be honest, I don't trust the owners.  And I don't believe they have either the money or ability to move the club.  That leaves them with an ailing football club sitting on a prime site for housing, with a council keen to see housing down  there.  The club relies on funding from the owners.  The owners fail to get planning permission for Dalmoak.  The owners then choke off the funding and a crisis develops.  Join the dots. 

But then, I could be wrong.

[BallochSonsFan]

3 hours ago, The Moonster said:

How exactly would closing us down play out? Genuine question, as I don't really understand these things. I wouldn't think administrators seizing control of the club is what Henning wants but perhaps I don't understand enough.

If liquidators were appointed then essentially their job would be to sell all of the club's assets and then distribute the funds to the club's creditors. If there was money left after any debts were paid, shareholders would receive a payment based on their shareholding.

There's a hierarchy of repayment:

• Secured creditors with a fixed charge
• Preferential creditors
• Secured creditors with a floating charge
• Unsecured creditors
• Shareholders

So any money raised from the sale of the club's assets would be paid to secured creditors first, then preferential creditors, then creditors with a floating charge, then unsecured creditors. Whatever was left would be used to pay shareholders. Meaning that:

- The securities granted on the part of the current ground site for which planning permission was given would need to be discharged first. The first round of payments would go to cover those securities. Pendragon Group currently hold a charge over that portion of land. The land would be sold and priority would be to discharge Pendragon's security held on that land.

- I'm not sure that the club has any preferential creditors. There doesnt appear to be any creditor relationship between the club and Brabco.

- Are there any director loans outstanding? That's typically the only unsecured creditors that we'd have as Dumbarton don't run with significant bank borrowing.

- Anything left would be paid to shareholders.

The big question is how much is all of that worth? The land at the the current ground is former industrial land that has limited value because of the associated clean up costs. It's fine for a football stadium but not great for housing. That brings the price of the land down a considerable amount. They're not going to be earning millions by sinking Dumbarton FC and selling the ground off for housing. Sinking the club and splitting the land price would obviously be an option, but it wouldn't be a desirable one for the owners as it doesnt give them the return they want. You could be looking at £500K - £700k for the portion of land with planning permission. It's perhaps a last resort for them if they can't make their money elsewhere, but its not their first choice. Their first choice remains relocating and making their money through the overall deal. I'd look at the idea of sinking the club and picking the carcass clean as a last resort, but one that they'd almost certainly consider if there was no other way out for them.

Which doesnt give the club a whole lot of protection unfortunately. It's still a route that they may eventually go down if they can't make money from their ownership of the club and nobody is able to buy it from them. The ideal scenario would be a buyout of some kind. That would probably require a Motherwell style model where an investor would fund the buyout and then accept repayment over a 10-15 year period. Perhaps even longer. You could be looking at having to fundraise £150k a year, every year for at least 15 years, to repay the takeover costs. If it came to it then it's an option, but it's not a particularly easy one to achieve. 

[BallochSonsFan]

1 hour ago, Frank Quitely said:

I'll be honest, I don't trust the owners.  And I don't believe they have either the money or ability to move the club.  That leaves them with an ailing football club sitting on a prime site for housing, with a council keen to see housing down  there.  The club relies on funding from the owners.  The owners fail to get planning permission for Dalmoak.  The owners then choke off the funding and a crisis develops.  Join the dots. 

But then, I could be wrong.

Its not a prime site.

Historic Scotland would restrict the number of properties that could be built. There would be an exclusion area around the base of the rock. Then there's the ground itself - its a former industrial site and would need a degree of clean up work. They used any old garbage to fill in the dock area down there. The original Brabco plan was to fund the move solely from the sale of the current ground. It didnt take the previous owners long to realise that this was pie in the sky and that any move would require enabling developments to raise the money needed to build a new ground and realise their anticipated profit. I'm not convinced that they'd get planning permission for anything beyond the portion of the current site for which planning permission has already been granted.

[lionel wickson]

I'll be honest, I don't trust the owners.  And I don't believe they have either the money or ability to move the club.  That leaves them with an ailing football club sitting on a prime site for housing, with a council keen to see housing down  there.  The club relies on funding from the owners.  The owners fail to get planning permission for Dalmoak.  The owners then choke off the funding and a crisis develops.  Join the dots. 
But then, I could be wrong.

What funding do the owners currently provide?

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

It looks like there could be a bit of squad movement in January…

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/dumbarton-boss-stevie-farrell-already-25702338.amp

If Farrell can somehow get shot of guff like Buchanan, Boyle and Geggan to free up wages for better replacements then fair play, I’m not sure how easy that will be mind you. I’d imagine it will be a 1 out 1 in type situation, we can’t have much room for additions without players leaving surely.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

5 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

It looks like there could be a bit of squad movement in January…

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/dumbarton-boss-stevie-farrell-already-25702338.amp

If Farrell can somehow get shot of guff like Buchanan, Boyle and Geggan to free up wages for better replacements then fair play, I’m not sure how easy that will be mind you. I’d imagine it will be a 1 out 1 in type situation, we can’t have much room for additions without players leaving surely.

I'm sure we could free up players but that's the straightforward part of the equation - finding decent replacements in January is a really tall order.  And for what it's worth I'd be looking to replace McKee, he's a been a ghost of the player he was previously here.  We also need to seriously consider the situation with Hopkirk, Erskine, Maley, McKnight and Muir.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

7 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

I'm sure we could free up players but that's the straightforward part of the equation - finding decent replacements in January is a really tall order.  And for what it's worth I'd be looking to replace McKee, he's a been a ghost of the player he was previously here.  We also need to seriously consider the situation with Hopkirk, Erskine, Maley, McKnight and Muir.

I’d tend to agree but I’m worried we’re lumped with Buchanan for the forseeable given he signed a two year deal. McKee is the same in that regard, although I still think he can do a job, we need the manager to get the best out of him. His set pieces for us were deadly a couple of years ago, yet we have guys like Paddy Boyle plodding up the park to take a corner. We have been really wasteful with set pieces recently as well, which is hugely frustrating.

[Boghead ranter]

I for one am ready to support The Dumbarton FC ('Mon The The Sons).

[cremola foam]

14 hours ago, BallochSonsFan said:

If liquidators were appointed then essentially their job would be to sell all of the club's assets and then distribute the funds to the club's creditors. If there was money left after any debts were paid, shareholders would receive a payment based on their shareholding.

There's a hierarchy of repayment:

• Secured creditors with a fixed charge
• Preferential creditors
• Secured creditors with a floating charge
• Unsecured creditors
• Shareholders

So any money raised from the sale of the club's assets would be paid to secured creditors first, then preferential creditors, then creditors with a floating charge, then unsecured creditors. Whatever was left would be used to pay shareholders. Meaning that:

- The securities granted on the part of the current ground site for which planning permission was given would need to be discharged first. The first round of payments would go to cover those securities. Pendragon Group currently hold a charge over that portion of land. The land would be sold and priority would be to discharge Pendragon's security held on that land.

- I'm not sure that the club has any preferential creditors. There doesnt appear to be any creditor relationship between the club and Brabco.

- Are there any director loans outstanding? That's typically the only unsecured creditors that we'd have as Dumbarton don't run with significant bank borrowing.

- Anything left would be paid to shareholders.

The big question is how much is all of that worth? The land at the the current ground is former industrial land that has limited value because of the associated clean up costs. It's fine for a football stadium but not great for housing. That brings the price of the land down a considerable amount. They're not going to be earning millions by sinking Dumbarton FC and selling the ground off for housing. Sinking the club and splitting the land price would obviously be an option, but it wouldn't be a desirable one for the owners as it doesnt give them the return they want. You could be looking at £500K - £700k for the portion of land with planning permission. It's perhaps a last resort for them if they can't make their money elsewhere, but its not their first choice. Their first choice remains relocating and making their money through the overall deal. I'd look at the idea of sinking the club and picking the carcass clean as a last resort, but one that they'd almost certainly consider if there was no other way out for them.

Which doesnt give the club a whole lot of protection unfortunately. It's still a route that they may eventually go down if they can't make money from their ownership of the club and nobody is able to buy it from them. The ideal scenario would be a buyout of some kind. That would probably require a Motherwell style model where an investor would fund the buyout and then accept repayment over a 10-15 year period. Perhaps even longer. You could be looking at having to fundraise £150k a year, every year for at least 15 years, to repay the takeover costs. If it came to it then it's an option, but it's not a particularly easy one to achieve. 

Very informative, thank you. My question would be, can a golden shareholder block this? My ( limited) understanding is that there is suchfor Dumbarton Fc.

[George Parr]

1 hour ago, cremola foam said:

Very informative, thank you. My question would be, can a golden shareholder block this? My ( limited) understanding is that there is suchfor Dumbarton Fc.

A 75% majority of C share holders is needed for votes relating to either liquidation of the DFC company or sale/disposal/transfer of the heritable property. 

[The Moonster]

56 minutes ago, George Parr said:

A 75% majority of C share holders is needed for votes relating to either liquidation of the DFC company or sale/disposal/transfer of the heritable property. 

Basically they'll never be able to push that through then.