Sons' sorrow

[Sweet Pete]

22 minutes ago, microdave said:

Iirc, the planning permission was refused because of the housing. If we got the go ahead for a new stadium on that site, then where does the money come from?
How do they think we can sustain a full time squad on an average attendance of 6-700? Our highest average in the Championship was 1100 which was skewed by having three of Scotland's biggest teams there.
What will these Scandinavian players be like?
In what way do propose more supporter participation? I can get on board with more supporter participation and ownership of the club, I'm struggling to see how that will happen.
Overall, I'm glad they've released the statement but it only raises more questions.

My understanding from the statement was that the existing stadium land would be developed to fund the new build at Renton.

Sounds like they're planning to go through with the "sign obscure foreign youngsters and sell on" model. Which has had hilarious results for other teams in the past, but success for some.

On the full time point, I don't see that as being unattainable. The likes of Raith, Ayr, Livingston, Hamilton, Airdrie, Clyde, Queens Park, Queen of the South have all been or are full time or a hybrid of FT/PT players. Even Cowdenbeath had full time pro-youths a few years back using the modern apprenticeship scheme, so the size of Dumbarton's support isn't necessarily a barrier to that. Dumbarton are one of the better supported perennial wee diddy clubs, so it should be achievable if done in the right way (which is a huge "if").

All the above being said, I reserve the right to decry the entire thing when it turns out that it's all just bread and circuses to disguise / distract from the plan to sell off all the assets with little concern for the future of a historically significant football club.

[BallochSonsFan]

23 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I'm not sure how full time football isn't beyond us. We're literally picking up bargain bucket Lowland League players and we think we can somehow bridge the gap to a full time side?

A number of things that concern me about that statement:

1. Henning Kristofferson is taking the lead on football matters. He is a financial businessman with an apparent global network of contacts for football talent. Sounds great, but without knowledge of what it takes to be good in Scotlands 2nd & 3rd tiers, the contacts he has might be utterly useless. It sets off alarm bells for me when you hear "international talent" being brought to a part time 3rd tier side. The sort of thing you promise fans if you are a charlatan, IMO. 

2. "The Hosie family keeping a stake in the club" being dressed up as a brilliant thing, without mentioning that the Hosie involved is a convicted criminal who is banned from directing a company. 

3. Talk of making us full time I think displays the huge misunderstandings about the game up here and in particular the situation Dumbarton and it's fans find themselves in, however I will credit them for avoiding writing such nonsense as "becoming the biggest club in the west of Scotland, outside the Old Firm" like our previous charlatan owners.

4. Plans to reignite the Youngs Farm proposal are just utterly deflating. Interested to know how the f**k they plan on financing it without selling houses to raise cash. If it is the selling on of young Scandinavian talent then I think I'll call house on Charlatan Bingo.

Struggling to see where this mob make pots of gold out of us with those suggested plans tbh. Selling houses on the current plot won't raise enough for a new stadium and give them a tidy profit. 

 

We're in the grubber right now. If nothing changes then we'll be in the grubber for the foreseeable future. Believe it or not, if we don't get it right then things at Dumbarton could conceivably get worse were we to find ourselves in danger of going down to the Lowland League.

It shouldn't be beyond us to get home crowds of 1000 fans or there abouts. Certainly enough to support a mix of full time and part time players. Unfortunately that's the end point of a very hard job engaging with the local community and getting more people through the doors. It's not something that happens overnight. It's something that could easily take a decade or more to achieve. Its where the gap between ambition and reality has to be bridged. 

Brabco were a shower of absolute b*****ds but they got one thing painfully right. They warned that if nothing changed then the club would become trapped in a spiral of decline. Them being b*****ds doesnt make that any less true. The heady days of us comfortably avoiding relegation in the championship are only a few years past and we're already looking at the strong likelihood of relegation to League Two. I don't trust the new owners. I don't trust anybody who wants to invest in a lower league Scottish football club for anything other than their love of a local team. This clearly isnt the case with the new owners. That doesnt change the reality facing the club right now. If we can't find a way to change, get fans engaged with the club and attending matches and we can't offer something that people want to get behind then the only way for the club is downwards. Nobody on here wants that.

Huge job ahead. We need to make sure that whatever the owners try to do, the future of the club is safeguarded and that we have the potential to improve from where we are right now. If the new owners think that they can make it work? Show us their workings and we'll give the plans proper scrutiny.

[The Moonster]

4 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

My understanding from the statement was that the existing stadium land would be developed to fund the new build at Renton.

Sounds like they're planning to go through with the "sign obscure foreign youngsters and sell on" model. Which has had hilarious results for other teams in the past, but success for some.

On the full time point, I don't see that as being unattainable. The likes of Raith, Ayr, Livingston, Hamilton, Airdrie, Clyde, Queens Park, Queen of the South have all been or are full time or a hybrid of FT/PT players. Even Cowdenbeath had full time pro-youths a few years back using the modern apprenticeship scheme, so the size of Dumbarton's support isn't necessarily a barrier to that. Dumbarton are one of the better supported perennial wee diddy clubs, so it should be achievable if done in the right way (which is a huge "if").

All the above being said, I reserve the right to decry the entire thing when it turns out that it's all just bread and circuses to disguise / distract from the plan to sell off all the assets with little concern for the future of a historically significant football club.

Of those full time sides you mention, Raith were balls deep in debt before a local guy came in and was/is underwriting losses, Ayr the same, their old owner literally piled money into a black hole, Livi have been a shambles from day one and are now seeing success after letting a convicted drug dealer into the club, Hamilton were begging for an SPL2 to be started not so long ago as they couldn't afford to keep running a full time side, Airdrie are a hybrid option which IMO doesn't work, Clyde's full time football clearly wasn't sustainable hence where they are now and have been for over a decade, and QP have a millionaire ploughing money in. Look at clubs like Morton, who have a bigger support than a few of those mentioned, their rich owners are moving on and their fans are taking over with some chat of moving part time to make things sustainable. Unless these owners are going to pile in cash and write off the losses, I can't see how it works.

I'd really much rather they'd said we are looking to make ourselves the best part time side in the country again, establish ourselves in the second tier and look to move to full time from there, but I still don't think it's possible without money being pumped in. 

 

[Sweet Pete]

4 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Of those full time sides you mention, Raith were balls deep in debt before a local guy came in and was/is underwriting losses, Ayr the same, their old owner literally piled money into a black hole, Livi have been a shambles from day one and are now seeing success after letting a convicted drug dealer into the club, Hamilton were begging for an SPL2 to be started not so long ago as they couldn't afford to keep running a full time side, Airdrie are a hybrid option which IMO doesn't work, Clyde's full time football clearly wasn't sustainable hence where they are now and have been for over a decade, and QP have a millionaire ploughing money in. Look at clubs like Morton, who have a bigger support than a few of those mentioned, their rich owners are moving on and their fans are taking over with some chat of moving part time to make things sustainable. Unless these owners are going to pile in cash and write off the losses, I can't see how it works.

I'd really much rather they'd said we are looking to make ourselves the best part time side in the country again, establish ourselves in the second tier and look to move to full time from there, but I still don't think it's possible without money being pumped in. 

 

I'm not suggesting that I necessarily endorse a move to full time football, I'm simply suggesting that if managed in the right way (not spunking money on silly wages for example) it could be achievable. If I was going to put my backing behind the idea, I would first want to see realistic plans for an increase in matchday revenue, plans to garner more support and plans for the transition.

Edit to add: I do think part time football should be the order where clubs have a level of support that would not naturally sustain full time, but where a club is borderline I think it is healthy to prevent a natural dwindling by lack of effort. For example, Dumbarton are better supported than Alloa, Montrose, Forfar, Cove, Edinburgh City, Annan etc etc. but if clubs are reluctant to try and increase their profile both in the immediate community and the wider community then they can natural dwindle away to a few elderly diehards as generations of younger fans are passed by, which is something which Dumbarton were previously guilty of. Remember the stooshie when some younger fans started to go to Albion Rovers games and the club was so shocked that anyone would want to support them that they banned them? That's the kind of thing I mean.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Sweet Pete

[The Moonster]

How do you get a work permit for a foreign national coming here to do a part time job?

[the snudge]

37 minutes ago, Mediocre Pundit said:

Two quick questions as an interested observer: first, where is Youngs Farm - is it a good location? And second, what would DFC fans want from a new stadium - I’d assume something like a 1k stand straddling half way line incl. facilities / hospitality plus basic terracing around other three sides would be appropriate - sort of like a purpose built Links Park? Wouldn’t imagine that would be too expensive, which might mean it could be covered (with profit) from sale of current site given how attractive that would be for development.

ETA: this isn’t to downplay concerns - I’d be very worried if the same thing happened at Thistle (and to be fair I’m already worried about our current and proposed ownership structures)

It's a flood plain. It's not in Dumbarton. It's not as picturesque as our current location.

If we did build a new stadia then I'd like it to be something along the lines of Princes Park Stadium of Dartford FC but smaller. 

 

 

[lorenzo71]

1 minute ago, the snudge said:

It's a flood plain. It's not in Dumbarton. It's not as picturesque as our current location.

If we did build a new stadia then I'd like it to be something along the lines of Princes Park Stadium of Dartford FC but smaller. 

 

 

A bit like TNS ground?Think it had a decent capacity.

[Sweet Pete]

I quite like Station Park. Something like that with more seating would be good.

[squeezeboxson]

I'm guessing that perhaps the plan is to use the current site to fund they proposed stadium move.  We would need to build and sell houses in the car park first? This would also make more sense of the newly registered company recently set up in our name, so to speak.

[PWL]

Idiot question from someone out of the town. 

Has the land at Lomondgate on north side of A82 been ear marked for other development or ruled out already?  Just below Aggreko.  

Always thought it was best option given road access already in place  and fairly flat. 

[Sons FC]

Brabco put nothing into the club except fear and contempt. If the new owners are even partly serious about the ambitions they have outlined then can only be a good thing.

If we build a new stadium and achieve the Championship again, then the supporters income won't be only (or largely) confined to a small number of away supporters - hopefully there would be more space for more away fans.

I understand the negativity but let's at least give them a chance to prove their ambitions - we will know soon enough. I think this could be a great move or Brabco II. Today and just now I am going with great move.

[Sweet Pete]

2 minutes ago, PWL said:

Idiot question from someone out of the town. 

Has the land at Lomondgate on north side of A82 been ear marked for other development or ruled out already?  Just below Aggreko.  

Always thought it was best option given road access already in place  and fairly flat. 

There's nothing on it just now. Just an aborted road off the roundabout and an empty field. Think it may be below the water table though due to the burns there.

[Sweet Pete]

3 minutes ago, Sons FC said:

Brabco put nothing into the club except fear and contempt. If the new owners are even partly serious about the ambitions they have outlined then can only be a good thing.

If we build a new stadium and achieve the Championship again, then the supporters income won't be only (or largely) confined to a small number of away supporters - hopefully there would be more space for more away fans.

I understand the negativity but let's at least give them a chance to prove their ambitions - we will know soon enough. I think this could be a great move or Brabco II. Today and just now I am going with great move.

[Nowhereman]

3 hours ago, The Moonster said:

I'm not sure how full time football isn't beyond us. We're literally picking up bargain bucket Lowland League players and we think we can somehow bridge the gap to a full time side?

A number of things that concern me about that statement:

1. Henning Kristofferson is taking the lead on football matters. He is a financial businessman with an apparent global network of contacts for football talent. Sounds great, but without knowledge of what it takes to be good in Scotlands 2nd & 3rd tiers, the contacts he has might be utterly useless. It sets off alarm bells for me when you hear "international talent" being brought to a part time 3rd tier side. The sort of thing you promise fans if you are a charlatan, IMO. 

2. "The Hosie family keeping a stake in the club" being dressed up as a brilliant thing, without mentioning that the Hosie involved is a convicted criminal who is banned from directing a company. 

3. Talk of making us full time I think displays the huge misunderstandings about the game up here and in particular the situation Dumbarton and it's fans find themselves in, however I will credit them for avoiding writing such nonsense as "becoming the biggest club in the west of Scotland, outside the Old Firm" like our previous charlatan owners.

4. Plans to reignite the Youngs Farm proposal are just utterly deflating. Interested to know how the f**k they plan on financing it without selling houses to raise cash. If it is the selling on of young Scandinavian talent then I think I'll call house on Charlatan Bingo.

Struggling to see where this mob make pots of gold out of us with those suggested plans tbh. Selling houses on the current plot won't raise enough for a new stadium and give them a tidy profit. 

 

To be fair our owners have been saying that for fifty years

 

DFC.pdf

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Nowhereman

[the snudge]

1 hour ago, PWL said:

Idiot question from someone out of the town. 

Has the land at Lomondgate on north side of A82 been ear marked for other development or ruled out already?  Just below Aggreko.  

Always thought it was best option given road access already in place  and fairly flat. 

I'm sure they're building just now. Not sure what it is

[optimistic]

Idiot question from someone out of the town. 
Has the land at Lomondgate on north side of A82 been ear marked for other development or ruled out already?  Just below Aggreko.  
Always thought it was best option given road access already in place  and fairly flat. 

It looks like remediation works have started next to aggreko, whether it’s to extend the site or not, I’m unsure.

[Howlin' Wilf]

To be fair our owners have been saying that for fifty years
 
DFC.pdf
 

To be fair if the new lot achieve what Alex Jackson, Martin Foy and Robert Robertson did, I would have no complaints.

[pleslie99]

2 hours ago, the snudge said:

I'm sure they're building just now. Not sure what it is

Its agrekko expanding their site so I believe.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

2 hours ago, optimistic said:

It looks like remediation works have started next to aggreko, whether it’s to extend the site or not, I’m unsure.

The hire depot from Overburn is being incorporated on the Lomondgate site and the works currently under way are for an extended car park which links into the Stag roundabout.

[optimistic]

Just thinking, what was brabcos statement when they first took ownership ?

Along similar lines?