Sons' sorrow

[PWL]

I'm not sure Michael Dickie crossed the half way line in most of those 122 games. In an era of the flying wing back it is safe to say he was an old fashioned defender. 

[RockMusic]

13 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

 

 The Jean Marc Bosman ruling has been a disaster for all but the elite clubs and the greed of players and their agents now runs rampant thro the game.  

And can you imagine the carnage if Bosman 2 had ever seen the light of day? If I remember correctly, that scenario was that players would have"standard" employment contracts where they could simply hand in their notice and leave when they wanted. But maybe that would've prevented the rise of the ridiculous transfer fees that are doing the rounds these days and will no doubt lead to more clubs facing financial ruin?? You have to feel heart sorry for Bolton and Bury, irrespective of if their woes were self-inflicted or not. Lifelong fans will awaken one morning to find their club has gone and be reduced to watching Soccer Saturday. Nearer to home, are Dundee Utd still in financial bother? I read a year or two ago that they were the Scottish club most likely to go under. I understand the sell-on they got for Robertson going to Liverpool bought them more time but are they actually in danger of going under?

[O'Kelly Isley III]

10 hours ago, virginton said:

Interesting that you try to contrast Man City's model to that of poor, wee Bolton, given that the latter actually spent £250 million more than they could afford to play at a far higher level than their fanbase and revenue could possibly sustain:

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/16101232.former-bolton-owner-eddie-davies-wipes-nearly-200m-off-books/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/8992131/bolton-administration/

Bury are just a two-bob version of that as well, including spunking money on a promotion winning squad just last season when the lights were going out. Last time I checked, nobody from the 'football authorities' put a gun to their head and insisted that they spent money that they didn't have to chase success. What did the fanbase do when Bolton were in the Premier League every season to try and ensure the survival of their club when it inevitably went tits up for them?

You'd be as well claiming that Dundee and Livingston's multiple administrations were the result of the OF and SPL greed, rather than the Walter Mitty pledges made to an ever-gullible fanbase that actually brought about their demise.

No, the Bosman ruling has only been a disaster for clubs who thought that refusing to ever let their players leave is a viable transfer strategy. There are plenty of clubs, even within Scottish football, who continue to sell on prospects within the terms of their contracts for substantial amounts of money. 

'Taking whatever they can' has been a complaint ever since the sport was professionalised 130 years ago; this is just old man yelling at a cloud nonsense. 

You perhaps unwittingly make my point about club ownership, maladministration and the failure of regulatory oversight.  The fact that Bolton's owner was able to pursue such an unsustainable business model leading to where were are today suggests that the Football League was at best asleep at the wheel, and at worst criminally derelict in the affairs of one of its original member clubs.  As in so many facets of modern British corporate activity, light touch regulation eventually leading to dire financial straits, but very rarely for the reckless speculators.  Pensions scandals, BHS, Capita - need I go on ?  And yet you have a go at the Bolton fans - priceless, even by your contrarian habits..

I see you also reference Dundee and Livingston.  Were the Marr brothers suitable candidates to own and run a football club operating under the auspices of the Scottish football authorities ?  Was Giovanni Di Stefano ?  Was Ron Dixon or Angus Cook ?  Were Dominic Keane and poor John McGuinness and sundry other chancers in the Almondvale Boardroom ?   Was it the fault of the Dens Park faithful that money was spunked out on Cannigia and Ravanelli when a blind man could see what would be the outcome ?

No, is the resounding answer, not forgetting of course the fiver I put in a bucket outside Cappielow when the Chancers Chancer, Hugh Scott Esquire, almost took your own club down the plughole.  And all because buying your way into football involves all the rigour of opening Govan’s 156^th tanning shop.  And that was my fucking point.  But what should we expect from the guardians of the UK's national game when we consider, for example, the sponsorship stranglehold the betting industry has on the sport ?

As for Bosman, are you seriously trying to tell us that the effect on clubs like ours has been largely neutral ?  I’m sorry, I must have missed those latter-day Neil Orrs, Joe McLaughlins, Ian Wallaces and Graeme Sharps departing Clydeside for bigger things. 

And finally the flippant comment about players’ wages.  In a time not so far away things were different; when Celtic won the European Cup in 1967 Billy McNeill would have been paid at best, say, three to four times the wages of a welder in Yarrows.  Fast forward to 2019 and Leigh Griffiths, for example, will be operating on a ratio of around 20:1.  Grotesque, obscene, unwarranted, greedy - all of the above, and unsustainable too once public interest wanes and televison pisses off to the next big thing.  Not much sign of trickle down from the big boys these days either to our own impoverished outfits, eh ?  

Yes, the irony of that stupid throwaway closing line coming from a supporter of a Morton club who this season have seriously tightened their cost model.  As has my own club, after too much profligacy in recent years took us to a financial bad place.  Maybe if more clubs were supported and encouraged by the football authorities to operate within their means the game would be in a healthier state. 

And who said I was an old man ? 

[SilverWolfe]

You perhaps unwittingly make my point about club ownership, maladministration and the failure of regulatory oversight.  The fact that Bolton's owner was able to pursue such an unsustainable business model leading to where were are today suggests that the Football League was at best asleep at the wheel, and at worst criminally derelict in the affairs of one of its original member clubs.  As in so many facets of modern British corporate activity, light touch regulation eventually leading to dire financial straits, but very rarely for the reckless speculators.  Pensions scandals, BHS, Capita - need I go on ?  And yet you have a go at the Bolton fans - priceless, even by your contrarian habits..
I see you also reference Dundee and Livingston.  Were the Marr brothers suitable candidates to own and run a football club operating under the auspices of the Scottish football authorities ?  Was Giovanni Di Stefano ?  Was Ron Dixon or Angus Cook ?  Were Dominic Keane and poor John McGuinness and sundry other chancers in the Almondvale Boardroom ?   Was it the fault of the Dens Park faithful that money was spunked out on Cannigia and Ravanelli when a blind man could see what would be the outcome ?
No, is the resounding answer, not forgetting of course the fiver I put in a bucket outside Cappielow when the Chancers Chancer, Hugh Scott Esquire, almost took your own club down the plughole.  And all because buying your way into football involves all the rigour of opening Govan’s 156^th tanning shop.  And that was my fucking point.  But what should we expect from the guardians of the UK's national game when we consider, for example, the sponsorship stranglehold the betting industry has on the sport ?
As for Bosman, are you seriously trying to tell us that the effect on clubs like ours has been largely neutral ?  I’m sorry, I must have missed those latter-day Neil Orrs, Joe McLaughlins, Ian Wallaces and Graeme Sharps departing Clydeside for bigger things. 
And finally the flippant comment about players’ wages.  In a time not so far away things were different; when Celtic won the European Cup in 1967 Billy McNeill would have been paid at best, say, three to four times the wages of a welder in Yarrows.  Fast forward to 2019 and Leigh Griffiths, for example, will be operating on a ratio of around 20:1.  Grotesque, obscene, unwarranted, greedy - all of the above, and unsustainable too once public interest wanes and televison pisses off to the next big thing.  Not much sign of trickle down from the big boys these days either to our own impoverished outfits, eh ?  
Yes, the irony of that stupid throwaway closing line coming from a supporter of a Morton club who this season have seriously tightened their cost model.  As has my own club, after too much profligacy in recent years took us to a financial bad place.  Maybe if more clubs were supported and encouraged by the football authorities to operate within their means the game would be in a healthier state. 
And who said I was an old man ? 

Fans are the largest stakeholders in their clubs and as such are entirely to blame when this happens. The clubs don't just die overnight, there is a build up over many years and there are very clear signs that its going to happen. Accounts are released every year which show mental losses with balance sheets that clearly show liquidity issues. The fans had a choice to either lap up the success the spending provided or actually do something about it and force the clubs to stop spending beyond their means. Football fans are thick as f**k and will always put short term success over long term sustainability and it's about time they took some responsibility.

As for your comment on players being greedy and their wages unwarranted. How so? 15 to 20 players at a football club are largely responsible for the revenue the club generates. Why should they not see a fair cut of it? Football is rare in that it rewards the employees who make the money rather than the fat cats up the stairs. I don't see anything wrong with footballer salaries so long as they are affordable to the club paying them.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Good to see our social media game has really been upped in recent weeks after a summer of silence.

[FifeSons]

At least this shirt will finally get some use.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

3 hours ago, Tartantony said:

Fans are the largest stakeholders in their clubs and as such are entirely to blame when this happens. The clubs don't just die overnight, there is a build up over many years and there are very clear signs that its going to happen. Accounts are released every year which show mental losses with balance sheets that clearly show liquidity issues. The fans had a choice to either lap up the success the spending provided or actually do something about it and force the clubs to stop spending beyond their means. Football fans are thick as f**k and will always put short term success over long term sustainability and it's about time they took some responsibility.

As for your comment on players being greedy and their wages unwarranted. How so? 15 to 20 players at a football club are largely responsible for the revenue the club generates. Why should they not see a fair cut of it? Football is rare in that it rewards the employees who make the money rather than the fat cats up the stairs. I don't see anything wrong with footballer salaries so long as they are affordable to the club paying them.

Pretty strong stuff there Tony, especially with regard to our intellectual capabilities.

Anyway, seeing you are a Sons fan, here's a couple of wee tasks for you.  Firstly, with regard to my highlight above, ask your nearest DFC Shareholder for a copy of the club's audited accounts for, say, any of the last 10 years -  let's see how that exercise stacks up against your bold assertion.  Secondly, ask that same shareholder for the pertinent aspects of the club's AGM's over, say, that same 10-year period, and let us know how you get on.

And if you are REALLY interested in DFC affairs then try taking a close look at Brabco's stewardship of the club; they after all are the majority shareholder.  I should warn you though, you may need a set of pry bars.  I've met these people on several occasions, and I can tell you it's an enlightening experience and one which bears out what I've already written above.  I can also tell you that being thick as f**k isn't the exclusive preserve of the fans.

 

[Nowhereman]

30 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Pretty strong stuff there Tony, especially with regard to our intellectual capabilities.

Anyway, seeing you are a Sons fan, here's a couple of wee tasks for you.  Firstly, with regard to my highlight above, ask your nearest DFC Shareholder for a copy of the club's audited accounts for, say, any of the last 10 years -  let's see how that exercise stacks up against your bold assertion.  Secondly, ask that same shareholder for the pertinent aspects of the club's AGM's over, say, that same 10-year period, and let us know how you get on.

And if you are REALLY interested in DFC affairs then try taking a close look at Brabco's stewardship of the club; they after all are the majority shareholder.  I should warn you though, you may need a set of pry bars.  I've met these people on several occasions, and I can tell you it's an enlightening experience and one which bears out what I've already written above.  I can also tell you that being thick as f**k isn't the exclusive preserve of the fans.

 

Yip I can back that up. I've been a shareholder in DFC for about 35 years. Used to receive a set of accounts every year and went along to the AGM . Can't remember the last time I received accounts or notification of an AGM. As a fan Tony thinks this is my fault. I'd be interested in having his suggestions as to what I should be doing about it. 

[SilverWolfe]

Nobody was questioning your intellectual capabilities to be fair.

Not sure why I need to ask my nearest shareholder for a set of accounts when I can easily access and analyse them myself.

Dumbarton are probably a good example of what I was talking about above. Last year made a loss of £113k and have a short term net debt balance of around £50k and are only able to continue in business due to someone being willing to cover the shortfall for the season. For a small club in League 1 in Scotland that's extremely worrying, yet you only have to look at this thread and the Facebook page to see plenty of fans wanting better (likely more expensive) players signed and refusing to turn up because of poor results (or drums of course). That's not a dig at any of the guys on here, it's entirely in line with every football fan of every football club.

Fans can choose to accept the level they are at, accept they can only afford a certain calibre of player and choose to turn up and spend money no matter how the team are performing. Or they can demand better players and more success while knowing the financial situation. If they choose the latter like most do then they can't be shocked when it all goes tits up.

The Bolton/Bury/Rangers/Dundee/Livi etc fans are entirely to blame as they all demanded a certain level of success knowing fine well the financial situation and it's consequences. I'm not going to feel sorry for them.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

I see big Henk has been punted from Morton already.

[SilverWolfe]

Yip I can back that up. I've been a shareholder in DFC for about 35 years. Used to receive a set of accounts every year and went along to the AGM . Can't remember the last time I received accounts or notification of an AGM. As a fan Tony thinks this is my fault. I'd be interested in having his suggestions as to what I should be doing about it. 

You could get a hold of the accounts yourself and read through them. You could then as a shareholder share your worries with other shareholders and force an EGM to raise your concerns. Non shareholder fans can also get the accounts and then put pressure on the clubs collectively to run in a sustainable manner.

[Nowhereman]

3 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

26 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

Yip I can back that up. I've been a shareholder in DFC for about 35 years. Used to receive a set of accounts every year and went along to the AGM . Can't remember the last time I received accounts or notification of an AGM. As a fan Tony thinks this is my fault. I'd be interested in having his suggestions as to what I should be doing about it. 

You could get a hold of the accounts yourself and read through them. You could then as a shareholder share your worries with other shareholders and force an EGM to raise your concerns. Non shareholder fans can also get the accounts and then put pressure on the clubs collectively to run in a sustainable manner.

You don't live in the real world do you?

[The Moonster]

6 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

The Bolton/Bury/Rangers/Dundee/Livi etc fans are entirely to blame as they all demanded a certain level of success knowing fine well the financial situation and it's consequences. I'm not going to feel sorry for them.

I can't agree here - entirely to blame is an absolutely huge misrepresentation IMO.

The board of directors of any club are appointed to oversee and ensure that the club as a business runs. They can't just splash cash they don't have, wash their hands of it and say "but the fans demanded success". If costs need cut then the board should cut them and the unfortunate side effect of that is that a section of fans will shout negative comments about them not being ambitious enough. A strong board will weather that storm, knowing full well that in the long run the club will survive and the fans will eventually see what has been achieved (hopefully). The board aren't there to bow to every single fan demand, they're there to run things sensibly - so when a board massively f**k things up, it's the fans who are expected to pick up the pieces or receive blame for the demise of their club, all because they wanted to watch a winning team? I just can't agree. 

 

[SilverWolfe]

You don't live in the real world do you?

In the real world clubs release accounts that we can all read. If we see something that worries us then we can take steps to fix it. Do you not agree?

[Howlin' Wilf]

41 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

1 hour ago, Nowhereman said:

Yip I can back that up. I've been a shareholder in DFC for about 35 years. Used to receive a set of accounts every year and went along to the AGM . Can't remember the last time I received accounts or notification of an AGM. As a fan Tony thinks this is my fault. I'd be interested in having his suggestions as to what I should be doing about it. 

You could get a hold of the accounts yourself and read through them. You could then as a shareholder share your worries with other shareholders and force an EGM to raise your concerns. Non shareholder fans can also get the accounts and then put pressure on the clubs collectively to run in a sustainable manner.

The first thing that anyone looks at in a set of accounts is the profit and loss statement where the sales and cost of sales is listed. Dumbarton FC Ltd. has not issued a profit and loss statement in at least ten years, maybe more. The accounts are pretty opaque to the average shareholder.  There hasn't been an AGM in at least ten years either.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Howlin' Wilf

[Howlin' Wilf]

From DFC's Incorporation Document dated 1914.

 

[Nowhereman]

6 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

31 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

You don't live in the real world do you?

In the real world clubs release accounts that we can all read. If we see something that worries us then we can take steps to fix it. Do you not agree?

I genuinely cannot see what fans could have done to 'fix' the problem of our owners over the last ten years. Everyone knows and has known that they bought the club for one purpose - to make money from the land. They have shown no interest in the football side of things throughout their ownership. Given the size of their shareholding there is absolutely nothing that fans can do about this. They can express their displeasure, attend meetings and make it clear to the owners that they do not approve of their plans. Dumbarton FC have a strong supporters trust, many of whom will not be shareholders, and they can make all the representations to the owners that they can. However when you have owners who are completely disconnected to the club and with only one aim it is simply not possible for the fans or minority shareholders to 'fix it'. 

[SilverWolfe]

The first thing that anyone looks at in a set of accounts is the profit and loss statement where the sales and cost of sales is listed. Dumbarton FC Ltd. has not issued a profit and loss statement in at least ten years, maybe more. The accounts are pretty opaque to the average shareholder.  There hasn't been an AGM in at least ten years too.

Fair point but the final profit or loss can be calculated fairly easily on the Balance Sheet.

The chat above is not about Dumbarton though it's about clubs like Bolton who do release a P&L. If fans don't know how to read the accounts then they should listen to experts who do. There are articles going back a decade discussing Boltons finances in depth yet here we are with shocked fans who done nothing but demand more success for a decade instead of putting pressure on the board to cut the budget.

[Howlin' Wilf]

Forcing an EGM or actually forcing DFC to do anything, I believe would take 26% of the shareholding to agree.

Brabco have 75% of the shares in DFC.

[SilverWolfe]

Forcing an EGM or actually forcing DFC to do anything, I believe would take 26% of the shareholding to agree.
Brabco have 75% of the shares in DFC.

I believe it's 10% but that's mostly irrelevant. The EGM point i made was purely in response to a question I was asked by a shareholder who wanted suggestions. You don't need to force an EGM to make a difference and stop the board running a club into the ground. It can be done in many ways.