Sons' sorrow

[1320Lichtie]

2 year deals are the norm with us now on our better players, but I said it as soon as he signed, there was a massive chance that Loy was always gonna be a crock. A 2 year deal to a guy that has been injured so much and had declined as badly as he had just seems mental.

You'd hope that if he still isn't fit and firing by the summer he'd maybe either renegotiate his deal or agree to terminate it. Dumbarton done good by him by getting him his job.

[The Moonster]

46 minutes ago, squeezeboxson said:

The last 2 we have signed on 2 year contracts were Rory Loy and Mark Brown. It really doesn't make a good case for 2 year deals.

Not sure if I have missed anyone but before that I remember Chris Turner being on a 2 year contract but he went to Hamilton after that ended if I remember correctly? So there wasn't any value in that either.

Craig Barr was signed on a two year deal.

[pleslie99]

Was Rory Loy not signed on a 2 year deal but funded by our very generous sponsors? I can't imagine them being too pleased if it is indeed them paying his wages to do he haw on the pitch. Or was their involvement just to give guys jobs alongside football?

[Howlin' Wilf]

If Loy was signed on a straightforward 2-year deal with no break clauses given his injury track record, then that is simply negligent.  It'd be interesting to know if Aitken signed him without basic due diligence.

[FifeSons]

25 minutes ago, pleslie99 said:

Was Rory Loy not signed on a 2 year deal but funded by our very generous sponsors? I can't imagine them being too pleased if it is indeed them paying his wages to do he haw on the pitch. Or was their involvement just to give guys jobs alongside football?

My understanding is that it's the latter, as opposed to some other signings that were specifically funded by an outside sponsor.

[FifeSons]

28 minutes ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

If Loy was signed on a straightforward 2-year deal with no break clauses given his injury track record, then that is simply negligent.  It'd be interesting to know if Aitken signed him without basic due diligence.

I wouldn't be shocked if we'd been stupid enough to sign him without a break clause.

[squeezeboxson]

1 hour ago, Ross Forbes said:

Mark Stewart was actually the last player before Loy who we signed on a two-year deal...

So aye, I don't think they're worth dishing out at this level - unless we have a highly rated young guy who signs it midway through a good season with bigger clubs no doubt sniffing around (like Kevin Nisbet has at Raith).

Haha. Forgot about him  which only further backs up the point.

[Broken Algorithms]

Nisbet is a bit of a strange case.  McCall couldn't get the best out of him at Ayr in the Championship, Aitken couldn't get the best out him at Dumbarton in the Championship, but Smith/McGlynn have him scoring for fun at this level. He's a couple years older now and it's a far poorer standard of defender in league 1. There's plenty of examples of others who have scored lots at this level, and then gone up and struggled. A good few who've gone up and then kicked on too.

[squeezeboxson]

1 hour ago, 1320Lichtie said:

2 year deals are the norm with us now on our better players, but I said it as soon as he signed, there was a massive chance that Loy was always gonna be a crock. A 2 year deal to a guy that has been injured so much and had declined as badly as he had just seems mental.

You'd hope that if he still isn't fit and firing by the summer he'd maybe either renegotiate his deal or agree to terminate it. Dumbarton done good by him by getting him his job.

I suppose maybe the main difference with yourselves and us is that we are signing players who haven't pulled on a sons jersey on 2 year deals then? I'm pretty sure CT when we signed him on a 2 year deal was already at the club the season before. So yeah that was definitely different.

[1320Lichtie]

I suppose maybe the main difference with yourselves and us is that we are signing players who haven't pulled on a sons jersey on 2 year deals then? I'm pretty sure CT when we signed him on a 2 year deal was already at the club the season before. So yeah that was definitely different.

Even recently...

Thomson, ToB, Denholm and think maybe Jamieson 2 year deals, McKenna and Wallace got 2 and a half year deals, extensions to key players usually 2 year as well. Ricky Little and Bobby Linn had few of them I think. Hamilton got one recently, McCord has had one.

Think the consistency has really helped us.

[The Moonster]

27 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Think the consistency has really helped us.

 

This, so much this. Look at any team who manage to keep a good core of players together in the lower leagues and they generally become successful.  We saw it when we went up to the Championship and we kept much of our squad together, Ayr are seeing the rewards of keeping a fairly young but talented squad together despite some perceived failure and Arbroath are showing in this division how keeping that core together breeds consistency. It's obviously harder for clubs like ours to keep good players together as they inevitably get taken by clubs further up the chain, but there's a lot to be said for keeping squads together IMO.

Am I right in saying a lot of your squad will have played together now for 3 seasons?  It's perhaps not a surprise that you are the most consistent and best organised team in the league (easy to say with hindsight of course - I certainly didn't predict a such a strong run from Arbroath but looking at the bigger picture now you can see how it has happened).

 

[1320Lichtie]

This, so much this. Look at any team who manage to keep a good core of players together in the lower leagues and they generally become successful.  We saw it when we went up to the Championship and we kept much of our squad together, Ayr are seeing the rewards of keeping a fairly young but talented squad together despite some perceived failure and Arbroath are showing in this division how keeping that core together breeds consistency. It's obviously harder for clubs like ours to keep good players together as they inevitably get taken by clubs further up the chain, but there's a lot to be said for keeping squads together IMO.
Am I right in saying a lot of your squad will have played together now for 3 seasons?  It's perhaps not a surprise that you are the most consistent and best organised team in the league (easy to say with hindsight of course - I certainly didn't predict a such a strong run from Arbroath but looking at the bigger picture now you can see how it has happened).
 

A lot of them have been here since the start of DC first summer. Hamilton, Little (7 years now total) Doris, Gold (4 years now total), Kader, McCord, Linn (7 years now total), Whatley (5 years now total) all were here the season before we won L2.

ToB, Denholm, Swankie joined the summer after and have now been here nearly 2 years. Swankie (like Doris and Hamilton) obviously had numerous spells with us.

Looking at an Arbroath team sheet over god knows how many year now you'd always expect to see Little, Linn, Whatley, Swankie, Doris, Hamilton, Gold on it. It's so satisfying being in the position we are with players who have racked up 100s of games as Arbroath players.

Hopefully McCord/McKenna/Thomas O'Brien, Thomson, Denholm, Jamieson are the next set of guys we can have here long term.

Only ones close to calling it a day would be Swankie I'd guess. Linn is 33 but he seems to have found a drive that he's never had before, he's incredibly fit and will do whatever to keep playing. Other than that everyone is 30 or under.

2 year deals are good things I'd say but to the right players and to get the right players got to have a good manager or a board who understand who's important to the club!!

[BallochSonsFan]

2 hours ago, pleslie99 said:

Was Rory Loy not signed on a 2 year deal but funded by our very generous sponsors? I can't imagine them being too pleased if it is indeed them paying his wages to do he haw on the pitch. Or was their involvement just to give guys jobs alongside football?

C&G are employing these guys outside of football. They're being treated as reasonably as possible to allow them to train/play and meet their work commitments but in essence they're no different from any other C&G employee. We've signed them on a contract just like any other player. The benefits are that C&G will try to help them meet their football commitments where possible whilst the combination of C&G wages and football wages may help us agree contracts with players who otherwise wouldn't sign for us.

C&G are responsible only for the non-football wages. No sweetened deals or bungs. We're responsible for the football wages. 

C&G aren't Hamilton Tarmac and we're not Hurlford Juniors.

[BallochSonsFan]

Arbroath have a bit of an advantage over us in terms of attracting players. They've got 3 bigger sides within travelling distance in Aberdeen, Dundee and Dundee United. For any players who are in and around those clubs, the 4 Angus teams offer a decent option for professional football if the big team doesnt work out.

Us? Sure we've got the central belt top flight teams who will be releasing prospects every summer, but competition for those players is huge. For older players? The majority of lower league clubs play between Fife and Lanarkshire. The likes of Annan in the south or Elgin and Peterhead in the north are exceptions. Then there's the junior league. West Superleague players at the top end will be picking up £250 a game. Hurlford were rumoured to be paying Stewart Kean £400 a week. That kind of money would price out some League One sides for a player who was still capable of delivering at our level.

It's perhaps easier for Arbroath to have a mainly settled squad given the relative lack of competition for signings for more locally based players.

[1320Lichtie]

Arbroath have a bit of an advantage over us in terms of attracting players. They've got 3 bigger sides within travelling distance in Aberdeen, Dundee and Dundee United. For any players who are in and around those clubs, the 4 Angus teams offer a decent option for professional football if the big team doesnt work out.
Us? Sure we've got the central belt top flight teams who will be releasing prospects every summer, but competition for those players is huge. For older players? The majority of lower league clubs play between Fife and Lanarkshire. The likes of Annan in the south or Elgin and Peterhead in the north are exceptions. Then there's the junior league. West Superleague players at the top end will be picking up £250 a game. Hurlford were rumoured to be paying Stewart Kean £400 a week. That kind of money would price out some League One sides for a player who was still capable of delivering at our level.
It's perhaps easier for Arbroath to have a mainly settled squad given the relative lack of competition for signings for more locally based players.

I can't remember the last time we ever signed a player released by Aberdeen, Dundee or United to be honest. Skelly but he was released soon after. Jamie Henry too from Aberdeen but he lived in Glasgow.

We train in Perth. So handy for all central based players, and I imagine we pay one of the best PT wages.

I'd much rather be based in the central belt to be honest.

[Johnny Red]

I see your point but if we never see Rory Loy in a Sons jersey again then that's a big issue.

He's on a two year deal so if he's not going to play, he's going to be spend 18 months of a 24 month contract not playing but being paid handsomely for it. That's not good.

I still hope we can see some good from him at some stage. Who knows when that'll be though, or if. Does anyone know the extent of his injury or what physio or rehab he's going through to try and fix the issue?

I for one feel sorry for the guy. Iv met him once or twice after the game and he’s pretty gutted about the way things have turned out. I don’t know all the ins and outs but know that it’s a severe back injury which he has already had treatment for which hasn’t had the desired effect - apparently investigating other potential (personally costly) solutions.

I think if he was quite happy just sitting taking the money, he wouldn’t be doing all he can to get fit.

I think think we will know for certain by spring whether he will kick a ball for us again.

[Howlin' Wilf]

I really have no idea what is wrong with Rory Loy's back. Doctors in almost 100% of cases will refer back injuries and pain to a specialist such as a physio or an osteopath.  Some years ago, Jorg Albertz, then of Rangers, was out of action with back pain. The club tried everything to get him right but it was only when they turned to Jim Schultz, a chiropractor from Helensburgh, that he was cured.  After that he was regularly consulted by Rangers and Celtic when players had back problems.

I have been to Jim myself during episodes of back pain and he has set me right.  I don't know if Jim or another chiropractor could help in Loy's case but it would surely be worth a try if anyone from the club is reading.  click

[George Parr]

5 minutes ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

I really have no idea what is wrong with Rory Loy's back. Doctors in almost 100% of cases will refer back injuries and pain to a specialist such as a physio or an osteopath.  Some years ago, Jorg Albertz, then of Rangers, was out of action with back pain. The club tried everything to get him right but it was only when they turned to Jim Schultz, a chiropractor from Helensburgh, that he was cured.  After that he was regularly consulted by Rangers and Celtic when players had back problems.

I have been to Jim myself during episodes of back pain and he has set me right.  I don't know if Jim or another chiropractor could help in Loy's case but it would surely be worth a try if anyone from the club is reading.  click

I have some sympathy for back pain sufferers. In my experience,  a MRI was the only effective way of obtaining an accurate diagnosis.  Once armed with the results, a physio was able to correct the issue fairly quickly. 

I found the osteopaths to be speculators who fumbled about a bit but were never really able to provide definitive answers.

But either way I hope Rory gets some relief soon - chronic back pain is a midden!

[FifeSons]

You can get a private MRI scan for a few hundred quid, or consultations with top physios for around £100. If he needs one and hasn't got one, that seems crazy. I know we're cash-strapped, but could we really not spare that to get one of our highest (if not the highest) earners back on the pitch?

[Jan Vojáček]

777,000 seconds since the transfer window opened, and still not a peep from DFC towers.

We're actually going to Brechin with 11 players, aren't we?